◼ Geert Wilders to be Prosecuted for “Hate Speech”
A Dutch court has ordered prosecutors to put a right-wing politician on trial for making anti-Islamic statements.
Freedom Party leader Geert Wilders made a controversial film last year equating Islam with violence and has likened the Koran to Adolf Hitler’s Mein Kampf.
“In a democratic system, hate speech is considered so serious that it is in the general interest to… draw a clear line,” the court in Amsterdam said.
Mr Wilders said the judgement was an “attack on the freedom of expression”.
“Participation in the public debate has become a dangerous activity. If you give your opinion, you risk being prosecuted,” he said.
Not only he, but all Dutch citizens opposed to the “Islamisation” of their country would be on trial, Mr Wilders warned.
“Who will stand up for our culture if I am silenced?” he added.
I guess pointing out that Islamists stone their teenage girls to death for having boyfriends is 'hate speech.' Pointing out that they behead their women in soccer stadiums in front of cheering crowds is 'hate speech.' Pointing out that they behead school girls and leave their heads on the police station steps is 'hate speech.'
Fitna, the movie.
◼ Ezra Levant on Wilders: Holland's national suicide note
Amsterdam, 21 january 2009 - On 21 January 2009 the Court of Appeal in Amsterdam ordered the criminal prosecution of the member of parliament Geert Wilders for the incitement to hatred and discrimination based on his statements in various media about moslims and their belief.
Did you catch that? It's just like the execrable section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act. Incitement to... what? Violence? Murder? Riot? No. Incitement to hatred.
◼ Defend Geert Wilders.wordpress.com
◼ Shooting The Messenger….This is Sharia Law!
◼ Is This the END or Just the BEGINNING? Geert Wilders charged over Fitna movie
I highly recommend you watch the movie, Fitna. Click on the link. It isn't even that extreme, not that inflammatory, he actually pulls back from some of the most egregious scenes, stops before the head is sawed off for example.
Then think about what this means to you.
***
As Wilders puts it, “If I have to stand trial, I will not stand trial alone, but also with the hundreds of thousands of Dutch people who reject the Islamization of The Netherlands.” He will also stand trial with those in The Netherlands and beyond who reject government prosecutions of free speech. In recognition of this dire situation, the IFPS immediately calls on every supporter of free speech to come to the aid of Geert Wildest assist in this effort, the IFPS has launched an international campaign in defense of Geert Wilders and his freedom of speech.
To support these efforts, we urge you to contribute to the Geert Wilders Defense Fund. Donation information can be found at the IFPS website at http://www.internationalfreepresssociety.org.
We also urge defenders of free speech to sign this letter of protest against the Dutch Government
◼ http://www.petitiononline.com/wilders/petition.html
Lars Hedegaard
President of the IFPS
lhedegaard@freepressmonitor.com
Update:
◼ BRITS CAVE TO ISLAMIC SUPREMACISTS: CANCELS FITNA SCREENING
Related: ◼ vanityfair.com/politics/ Christopher Hitchens, Assassins of the Mind
When Iran’s Ayatollah Khomeini issued a fatwa on novelist Salman Rushdie for The Satanic Verses, it was the opening shot in a war on cultural freedom. Two decades later, the violence continues, and Muslim fundamentalists have gained a new advantage: media self-censorship....
Well, maybe the combination our new president and europe's new
ReplyDeletestupidities will net us some
immigrants who are committed to
a country where women are treated better, at least as a matter of policy. We got female Secretaries of state, female Speakers, and
female Silver Star winners.
If the Islamofascists think they can take us, they haven't met many
American women.
The Dutch seem about as stupid as the British. They should be throwing at least some of the Muslims out of their country, not coddling them.
ReplyDeleteOr simply asserting the rules and laws. say, look, you are welcome here, assimilate, but we are not going to be overrun, we are not going to institute Sharia law, you're not going to wear a burkha when you get your driver's license picture taken.
ReplyDeleteIf you've been reading much on this you see that the Arab nations have not been exactly supporting Hamas, they know what the extremists represent, and they don't want it. We're the dumb ones. Cowed by political correctness.
Call it bigotry, call it whatever you want, but I've been thinking for some time the Europeans need to put the Muslims in their place- at least the ones living in Europe. I came to that conclusion after seeing immigrant Arabs demonstrating with signs calling for the death of those criticizing Islam.
ReplyDeleteThey should just close their doors to Muslims from other countries, as should we, but that's unlikely. They could also screen immigrants on their way in by making them sign an agreement.
The agreement would state that they promise to recognize others rights to free speech (life, liberty and all that) and that if they advocate taking away others rights, they forfeit their right to live in their adopted country.
So, call it interfering with free speech if you will, if a Muslim is seen demonstrating with a sign calling for beheading someone who "offends Islam", they are deported.
I'm with you, Fred.
ReplyDeleteMake it clear that we will not tolerate such backwards mentality in this day and age. We have progressed. they need to move into this century, or be removed from it.
For more on this read INFIDEL by HIRSI ALI. It's much, much worse than you think...
ReplyDeleteWell, frankly, I am HOPEful that now that Obama has been elected and taken office, the Democrats and the Left can finally put aside their hate of their own Country and their own President, and open their eyes, and focus their attention where it ought to have been all along, on the real danger to this world, to their lifestyle choices and to our overall well-being.
ReplyDeleteFocus on putting an end to murderous beheadings and practices like 'honor-killing' - focus on letting girls attend schools, real schools that don't teach sharia law and hate of the west, focus on the leader of Iran and the lack of tolerance there.
Stop the BS that's been going on for 8 years, pull their heads out of the sand and do something good for a change.
Focus on helping the Islamic religions and the Islamic nations into this century, with freedom of religion for all, freedom of expression for all.
Rose, not you or any American who supported Bush's war against Arab Muslims has any moral high ground to point fingers at Muslims for acting as barbarians. You are the barbarian as well when you support the kinds of death to innocent Muslim children, women, old men, who comprise most of the targets of U.S. attacks against Iraq as well as Israel's, the U.S.'s colony in the Middle East, attacks against innocent Muslim Palestinian women and children.
ReplyDeleteDo we hear you repenting of your barbarity, Rose? No, we hear Jingoistic "we're superior beings to Muslims" and yet in truth you are not. Your support of Bush's killers and Israel's killers puts you in the same barbaric category as those Muslims atrocities which are far fewer in number than the carnage committed by your killer apes in American soldier outfits, many of them Christians btw..
So, please, no more hypocrisy about Muslims vs. us.
Until America takes the moral high ground and renounces the use of brute military force to insure American hegemony in other people's lands, we cannot say we are better than the worst of our targeted enemies.
ReplyDeleteOk Steph baby, how's this. Screw morality. Screw innocence. The hightest law is self preservation- ok fine. They want to kill us all?
ReplyDeleteWe CAN kill all of them. Sixty years ago Japan and Germany slaughtered millions, but now, now everybody just loves Japan and Germany.
So, what say we simply nuke every single muslim country. Every one.
Kill them all. Every. Single. One.
In 50 years, no one will care and everyone will love us.
As as for hegemony, I believe those sweet muslim turks referred to themselves as "Lords of the Horizon". Musliims have been preying on non-muslims for hundreds and hundreds of years. Screw it.
There you go. Pure unleavened hate. The good thing for everyone else is that neither you nor I will ever be in charge.
Speak for yourself. I know Muslims and know that they are no different from you and I in their hearts. We all love God and life but many are enthralled by violent men and afraid to speak up or act against them, including Americans.
ReplyDeleteWhy not use commonality instead of focusing on who's worse than who. We cannot say we are better as the body count shows we are not.
Stephen...shutup.
ReplyDeleteFred,your libertarian ideals go out the window when it comes to Muslims,I see.So if I opt one day to become Muslim,shall I be punished?Should those who taught and guided me,and provided me with knowledge be punished as well?
ReplyDeleteBut hey,let's hurry up and arm and fund our next Bin Laden under whatever "War on.....",or ".....War"banner we cleverly come up with so that the aspiring mujadeens or whatever can obtain control of their government and impose stricter,more cruel laws against the citizenry in the country they rule.
And most importantly,always remember that Christians are perfect,never an atrocity at their hands,never undemocratic,just perfect human beings.
Maybe Muslims ought to adopt the same standards the Christians used to exterminate native Americans if they want some respect from Westerners.
Lets extinguish the Islamic extremists and bury gay rights, right Rose?
ReplyDeleteI would think if you extinguish Islamic extremists you would be protecting gay rights, and women's rights, and children's rights, and your own rights.
ReplyDeleteOr have you forgotten Ahmadinejad's proclamation that there are no gays in Iran. A foolish mistake he will not make again. But you need to pay attention, and not be fooled.
Stephen, you sound like Connie Stewart, who pronounced at a City Council meeting that Bush ran around the world killing little brown people. The fundamental lack or either understanding or acknowledgement that it is in fact MUslim extremists killing little brown people, and black people and white people that is the cause of the conflict.
ReplyDeleteOf all the conflicts in the world right now, all but one involve Muslim extremists killing people.
You can let them run rampant, and pretend they won't chop off your head if given the opportunity, and look the other way as the stone teenage girls to death for having a boyfriend. You have a daughter. Imagine her fate under Islamic rule.
Remember Time magazine's coverage of the situation in Afghanistan? Musicians had to bury their instruments in the sane lest they be killed for possessing them under Taliban rule. Men were killed for listening to music.
You want that kind of life?
It is wrong no matter where or when it occurs.
Saddam took money given by the international community for antibiotics for his people and used it to build palaces with solid gold faucets, and pursue weapons that would blow up his neighbors.
You would forget or forgive that?
Worse. You would blame it on Bush.
You may not mind bowing to mecca at noon. Maybe the women you know would not mind wearing a burkha and never being seen as a human being again as long as they shall live.
I refuse to go there. And, in your life as a rebel, you really do show that you certainly would never go there either, no matter what the rhetoric of the day is.
You don't want people telling you what to do, what to say, what to think, who to care about, what to believe in - why would you be tolerant of a religion and a country that refuses to grant those things to any human being.
I'd more likely blame it on Bush Sr.,during his tenure as C.I.A. director if one should be set on blaming any recent public figure.And really,take this as you will,most fervent recent struggles come out of Israel's creation as a state.
ReplyDeleteSo it's supposed to be Bush's fault that women are stoned to death by their own parents for going on a date?
ReplyDeleteAnd it's supposed to be Israel's fault that Muslims are currently engaged in wars in every country from The Phillipines to Morocco and have destabilized half of Africa?
RRC
"And it's supposed to be Israel's fault that Muslims are currently engaged in wars in every country from The Phillipines to Morocco and have destabilized half of Africa?"
ReplyDeleteOr the fault of those fervently against Israel's establishment as a state.
More accurately, recent struggles would include Hitler's Nazi Germany attempting to obliterate all Jewish people from the planet. It would include lining people up and putting them on trains, telling them they were going to be ok in order to keep them orderly, putting them in Concentration Camps, again pretending that everything was to be ok, then telling them they needed to shower and sending them in with their children to be gassed to death.
ReplyDeleteAnd because of the rampant unrelenting anti-semitism, believing that they should be protected, have a right to protect themselves, and never again have to endure that horror - man's inhumanity to man.
That, the culmination of a history of anti-semitism, was a rift in the universe that will never heal, but the attempts must be made, and the entire world owes that debt. Forever. Period.
We, as a nation, have proven that people of all faiths, of all colors, of all national origins can live together. That mankind does not have to kill one another over these things. that people do not have to be persecuted for their beliefs. It's had its rocky parts, from the Salem Witch Trials to Kent State. From slavery to electing Obama.
I do not buy the argument that we are the great evil. And neither is Israel. They would choose to live in peace. But they cannot risk another holocaust.
In this country, people of Muslim faith live in peace. They are our neighbors. They do not firebomb entire neighborhoods as they did in Paris.
Neither they, nor we, can allow the extremists any foothold anywhere in this country or in the world, or in the universe.
And just to be clear From slavery to electing Obama. meaning we work to make things right, to make things better, we do not stay mired in the bad practices of the past. We are a good and decent nation.
ReplyDeleteEsquan writes; "Fred,your libertarian ideals go out the window when it comes to Muslims,I see.So if I opt one day to become Muslim,shall I be punished?".
ReplyDeleteTo some extent you are correct, since I've never been a "open borders" libertarian and I don't think this country should accept more Muslim immigrants.
That said, if you want to convert to Islam, have at it. As long as you are an American citizen, you can do as you wish, assuming you obey our laws.
I'm speaking of potential immigrants.
I'm not saying current U.S. immigrant citizens should be run out of the country. I'm certainly saying that if they threaten other people's rights, they should either be imprisoned, or shown the door back to from where they came.
As far as current immigration of Muslims, or those from Muslim countries, the door should be closed until we can deal with this problem.
I'm not saying they can't go to other countries, I'm just saying they shouldn't be allowed to come here. Don't worry, esquan. That's not going to happen. We'll accept everybody with open arms.
If Mexico, Canada, Germany or whatever country wants to accept them, that's their business, although I think that's their mistake.
We need to let Muslims stew in their own juices until they finally get a clue and can join the world. That could take decades, or centuries.
""And it's supposed to be Israel's fault that Muslims are currently engaged in wars in every country from The Phillipines to Morocco and have destabilized half of Africa?"
ReplyDeleteOr the fault of those fervently against Israel's establishment as a state.""
Well, Rose, despite your impassioned speech above you've ended up playing hostess to a rabid anti-semite.
One would hope that our good and decent nation can wash the smell of collateral damage off our bombs. It will take a lot of good will to deodorize the bad choices of our recent past.
ReplyDeleteApparently Antartica is warming. I betcha Rose finds a way to spin this one-
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/21/MN8015E0U9.DTL&tsp=1
"In a report published Thursday in the journal Nature, climatologists Eric Geist of the University of Washington and Drew Shindell of NASA's Goddard "Institute for Space Studies say that for the first time they combined satellite observations over the entire continent with evidence from more than 100 manned and unmanned weather stations both inland and along the continent's coasts to determine climate trends for the past 50 years.
ReplyDeleteDuring an hour-long teleconference Wednesday, the scientists said their data clearly shows that on average the entire Antarctic continent has been gradually warming at least since 1957."
Actually, you've got the data wrong. The study indicated an extremely slight possibility that the continent may have warmed in 45% of the years--and has definitely cooled in the remaining 55% of the years. Taken together the data for warming and cooling produced a .35% warming. More data is needed to determine whether or not this is a mean deviation.
ReplyDeleteOh, 8:57 (8:59) I expect the Warmistas to ramp up now that the election is over and they expect to gain from this new administration. You will see all sorts of "experts" paraded around touting 'studies.' With no mention of the source of the studies, or the real source obscured.
ReplyDeleteThere's been money at stake all along, and power, too, and it is about to get a whole lot more lucrative.
What some people will do for money.
Mresquan, we have neighbors who are Muslim. Kind, and gentle. Our neighborhood stood beside them after 9/11. as they feared retaliation.
ReplyDeleteThe vast majority of people are good, no matter their religion, ethnicity, wealth, color, age or sex.
It is evil that must be wiped out, wherever it resides. In Hitler's time it was the Nazis. In ours it is the Taliban, the Muslim EXTREMISTS.
If you, like Cat Stevens and Michael Jackson, choose to 'convert' to Islam, I don't think that will turn you evil. I don't think you would condone sawing off Nicholas Berg's head on camera.
That's the difference.
The point of this post is that GOOD people are kowtowing to this evil and allowing it to take root. Look what happened with the Danish cartoons - compare it to the 'artist' in our country who put the crucifix in the jar of piss and called it 'art.' The Muslim extremists rioted in the streets. So the cartoons were banned.
Now they are trying to silence Geert Wilders.
Free speech matters.
EVERYONE in this country, and around the world should stand up beside him, and say "No." "No. We will not tolerate this, he has a right to speak."
We allow the KKK to march in our streets. In the spirit of FREE SPEECH. We don't like it. We may think we should not allow it. But we do.
There are bloggers in Venezuela who risk their lives getting the message out about what is going on there. You know that if they are silenced, something very precious dies.
Same here.
Rose, I don't kow tow to anyone on earth. You are an extremist in your opinions and I can't change that but I can point out your gross hypocrisy and others posting here where you refuse to look at the statistics of our part in killing innocent Muslims and taking control of their lands, something that has been going on since the end of the Ottoman Empire.
ReplyDeleteHow many Iraqis were killed by Bush Sr.'s war, Rose? How many Iraqis have been killed by Bush Jr.'s war, Rose? Do you even know?
How many Vietnamese were killed by Johnson and Nixon? How many brown-skinned people does it take to be killed by Americans under white presidents before it registers that perhaps Americans and you have a racist streak that cannot see brownskinned people's deaths unless they die by the hands of Muslim fanatics?
America's hands are bloody all over place, Rose, going to war conveniently against the Muslim nation with the largest oil reserves and kow towing to another one by supporting a corrupt royalty that spends money like water on whims of spoiled rich men while their countrymen and women watch all their oil money being spend on lavish palaces while nothing is being saved for future generations of Saudis, and you support these people without a squeak of protest because Republican Bushes did?
If American political leaders had not been so greedy to control Middle East oil supplies and impose the European Jewish colony of Israel on Arab Muslim majority Palestine, you would not have ever seen the rise in power of Muslim extremists. They are created as a Reaction to Western extremists, greedy oil men, greedy Congressmen, greedy Zionists, who have literally invaded Muslim nations in order to seize control for the benefit of Western nations.
So, as long as Americans produce these invaders of the Middle East they can expect a violent response.
You want mellow Muslims? You have to stop messing with their world and start to act like decent human beings. Decency is responded to by Muslims. Invasion and control are also responded too. You have to choose the high road, Rose, if you want to see Muslims at peace with the world. Please remember your Christian history in which it wasn't all that long ago Christians themselves were outdoing Muslim atrocities all across Europe, the Americas, Australia, and Africa.
Brownskinned children put in baskets and drowned in our rivers. Brownskinned women raped and killed by white settlers. Brownskinned people who wouldn't convert burned at the stake, Brownskinned women and children and old men clubbed to death on Indian Island. Look at our real history, Rose, before you start parading American mores as being better than the Taliban's. We're just better at PR in covering up our atrocities..
ReplyDelete"Decency is responded to by Muslims."
ReplyDeleteWell, there goes another keyboard. I should have known better than to be drinking tea when reading one of Gruppenführer Lewis' rants.
"The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."
The Prophet Mohammad circa AD 638
As the world becomes more crowded and resources dwindle, our ability to commit the atrocities of shock and awe and collateral damage in the name of spreading democracy after the fashion of our good and decent nation exposes the truth that our goodness and decency has been hijacked by free market globalization which has harnessed the full force of the U.S. military machine in the service of corporate agenda.
ReplyDeleteOh, yes, the Corporate Agenda, hijacked.
ReplyDeleteI've said it before, if the Palestinian people want peace, all they have to do is stop lobbing bombs at Israel.
If they did so, they could have 1,000 years of peace.
They could start actually producing something of value. Something besides suicide vests.
Sorry Stephen, but these people put the children up front to be shot at, they hide in schools and hospitals, and send the women up first as shields.
There is no honor there.
"Or the fault of those fervently against Israel's establishment as a state.""
ReplyDeleteWell, Rose, despite your impassioned speech above you've ended up playing hostess to a rabid anti-semite."
How does simply pointing something out make me a rabid anti-semite?Is the statement incorrect?Personally,I don't side with one or the other in this conflict.,but will say that the heavy military backing we provide to fuel the conflict are it's biggest problem.
Sorry for you, Rose, you don't read the statistics at all it seems, just keep going with your bigoted opinions in the face of FACT: for every Israeli killed 4 or 5 Palestinians are killed. For every Israeli child killed 4 or 5 Palestinian children are killed. And do you understand why cluster bombs have been outlawed?
ReplyDeletePlease, stop with your propaganda against Palestinians and recognize social justice for once. You wouldn't want Chinese invading California would you? Well, neither do Palestinians want New York Jews, Russian Jews invading and taking over their country. The only reason you swallow Israel's propaganda is because you refuse to look at the Other Side of issue. Until you do, I can only point out your gross hypocrisy of wanting peace for Israelis but none for Palestinians--they can be occupied until kingdom comes as far as you're concerned. 60 years of occupation serves 'em right for being brown-skinned low tech natives in the way of poor European Jewish refugees who Europeans and Americans unilaterally decided needed their land to assuage European guilt by making Palestinians pay for that guilt.
And Zionist commenters daring to accuse me of "anti-semitism" or nazi sympathies? Just look at what Zionists are doing to real Semitic peoples before you post your bigoted crappy ADL character smears against critics of Zionist fascists now compared to Nazis by even Jewish leaders themselves. Guess they're "anti-Semitic" too, eh?
ReplyDeleteFor the record, I am of Jewish ancestry, the majority of my Jewish ancestry is Polish so I too had relatives who died in the Jewish holocaust, but check it out, there are thousands of us anti-Zionist Jews, thousands who stand with Palestinian resistance fighters against Zionist fascist invaders and occupiers. Sooner or later all of you will wake up to the fact that resistance to invasion is a very legitimate cause and those labeling such resistance fighters, "terrorists" when their families are being bombed with white phosphorus, children maimed with cluster bombs are only exposing themselves as total frauds, total hypocrites using propaganda to mask very evil acts against innocent peoples.
ReplyDeleteAnd for the record, just as I defend Geert Wilders right to speak freely, so do I defend your right, Stephen.
ReplyDeleteYou are correct. Innocent people are dying.
We just do not agree on the cause of the violence. Or on the solution.
You cannot deny that, if left alone, Israel will not be bombing anyone.
Did you not hear the reports of how carefully they have tried to avoid civilian casualties? Leaflets warning people - and what to the Palestinians do? when the air raid sirens sound? Send the women and children up on the roof. So the Israeli's started setting off a blank bomb, and when the women and children ran, relieved to have survived the 'bomb' - then they set off the real one, once the women and kids were free. That is extraordinary care, Stephen.
Look, if it were up to me, there wouldn't BE any territories. We are all PEOPLE of the world. I'm not in favor of Indian reservations either, nor of separate nation status. Knock it all off.
Like I said, we have proven that people can live together. Why can't the Palestinians work towards something positive like that for a change?
If they set down their arms, and stop the bombing, missiles, suicide/homicide bombers, they would be free to live and prosper. It is up to them. The world waits for them to come into this century.
Added to the post above:
ReplyDelete◼ Ezra Levant on Wilders: Holland's national suicide note
Amsterdam, 21 january 2009 - On 21 January 2009 the Court of Appeal in Amsterdam ordered the criminal prosecution of the member of parliament Geert Wilders for the incitement to hatred and discrimination based on his statements in various media about moslims and their belief.
Did you catch that? It's just like the execrable section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act. Incitement to... what? Violence? Murder? Riot? No. Incitement to hatred.
◼ Defend Geert Wilders.wordpress.com
◼ Shooting The Messenger….This is Sharia Law!
◼ Is This the END or Just the BEGINNING? Geert Wilders charged over Fitna movie
I highly recommend you watch the movie, Fitna. Click on the link. It isn't even that extreme, not that inflammatory, he actually pulls back from some of the most egregious scenes, stops before the head is sawed off for example.
Then think about what this means to you.
.
ReplyDeleteThe Koran shouldn't be banned. Mein Kampf isn't a 'Holy Book', but it shouldn't be banned either, but you should be able to criticize the idiots who agree with it.
As you may suspect, Geert Wilders is NO racist. He is simply against out-of-control immigration; and against immigrants who won't assimilate; and the ones who beat Gays and rape non-Muslim women for not being covered up.
He is also very much against the ones who kill their own daughters and sisters for their 'family honor'.
.
here’s an absurd thought -
your Supreme God knows
Christ was a pedophile
and a raping terrorist
converting slaves by the sword
.
Muslims are not a 'race' anyway, they are followers of a religion/ideology and its Sharia Law.
Most Muslims aren't even Arabs, which by the way, is also not a 'Race'.
But their duty is, according to their Koran, to spread Sharia law over the whole Earth. It might take 100-200 years, if they succeed.
Is that the kind of world you want for your great-grand children's great-grand children? A Taliban Planet? I bet not.
Muslims are the biggest victims of Islam. Wilders is NOT against Muslims, he is against Islamic Fundamentalism.
You should read the Koran, but be careful, for the Koran prohibits non-Muslims from reading it.
I wonder why.
This is BIG, this is REAL BIG! SPREAD THE WORD to the world everyone! The EU Mandarins have crossed the line! If this goes to court, how much more of the public will become aware of this tyranny?
All real freedom starts with freedom of speech. If there is no freedom of speech, then there can be no real freedom.
The Christians and Jews don’t riot when somebody makes fun of Christ or Jews. People must learn to be civilized, and held to account when they are not. Muslims included.
Geert Wilders is a hero spreading the painful truth. He MUST be protected!
.
here's an absurd thought -
your Supreme God says
Christians are a race
who love the Jewish race
and the peaceful Buddhist race
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe wants
Islam for everyone
submit to glorious life
slavery and servitude
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
outlaw self-defense
exposing violent crimes
shall be deemed hate speech
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
decide to change your race
just simply change religions
your religion is your race
.
All real freedom starts with freedom of speech. Without freedom of speech there can be no real freedom.
.
Philosophy of Liberty Cartoon
.
Help Halt Terrorism Today!
.
USpace
.
:)
.
"If they set down their arms, and stop the bombing, missiles, suicide/homicide bombers, they would be free to live and prosper. It is up to them. The world waits for them to come into this century."
ReplyDeleteNo, Rose, the world is waiting for European-Americans like you to stop with the racist accusations against Third World people who are in this century right along with you and your ungodly support of killers in office like G.W. Bush who you gave a blank check to kill thousands of innocent Iraqis and hundreds of innocent Palestinians through the U.S.'s puppet colony in the Middle East, Israel.
You have no moral high ground to accuse any Palestinian of anything, Rose. Don't you get it? Bush lost it for you and your inability to recognize the national aspirations of people is extremely prone to racism because white Europeans are in control of most of the world's resources and weaponry whereas they are a distinct minority worldwide. Arab Muslims, Palestinians are reacting to this imbalance of power over their lives. It's their land and we took it away from them by imposing this huge Jewish immigration on Palestine without any Palestinian consent to appease European guilt over the European Jewish holocaust. We've made Palestinians pay with their country and their lives for European crimes. Do you get it now? It was a crooked deal from the get go and, no, 60 years or a 100 is not going to erase the immoral way Israel was established that has cause so much damage to America's reputation throughout the Middle East.
Stephen, every President in recent memory has thrown himself at the wall - how many high level Peace Summits have there been?
ReplyDeleteHow many agreements forged? How many times have hopes been dashed? And by whom?
In one of the more recent agreements, where the demands were presented, and agreed to, the deal was reneged upon almost immediately.
It's never enough. They don't want peace. The people may. But the leaders they tolerate and even elect, do not.
I say it again, over and over and over - they must cease the aggression. Israel is not the aggressor.
If they lay down the weapons, they will not only have peace, but they could enjoy some of the same rights and living conditions that we have - maybe not under their own rulers, but certainly under Israeli rule. Peace, prosperity, creative endeavor instead of death and destruction.
Don't lay this one on Bush. It both predates him and it will go on long after he has left office.
Ok, Rose. I will say no more because you are flat out brainwashed when you can make such stupid statements as "Israel is not the aggressor". You obviously have never taken any time to look at what Israel has taken away since 1948 from the Palestinian lesser share of the division of Palestine to make room to millions of immigrant Jews. Keep your prejudices but lose my respect because you are siding with fascists and I am not the only one calling Israeli hawks that, look at what the British Jewish MP said a few days ago on my blog as well as what most all the Middle East Arabs are also accusing Israel of being. You just do not want to give Palestinians any credit for being human beings trying to stop the Jewish genocide of Palestinian society. You want to ignore their human rights as human beings, as Palestinian citizens by accepting without question, without researching the real history of Zionists who have, since before 1947 actually, wanted to drive all non-Jewish people out of Palestine to make way for a Greater Israel, an attempt to recreate the myth of David and Solomon's fictitious kingdoms that have no archeological evidence to show they ever existed, unlike real ancient kingdoms that have left plenty of artifacts to confirm their historical existence. Centuries of Christian acceptance of the Old Testament stories as actual history has warped many a generation of Americans and I believe this includes you because I do not understand why you would support Zionist crimes against humanity otherwise.
ReplyDeleteStephen, you are my friend, and you are a good man, despite the assessments people make in reaction to your arguments regarding the Palestinians.
ReplyDeleteWe don't agree. probably never will.
However - for all the talk about BUSH killing people, BUSH's illegitimate war, BUSH bombing a country we are not even at war with...
Well, here's your chance to be consistent.
Obama has ordered his first airstrike. In PAKISTAN.
...“Missiles fired from suspected US drones killed at least 15 people inside Pakistan today, the first such strikes since Barack Obama became president and a clear sign that the controversial military policy begun by George W Bush has not changed.
Security officials said the strikes, which saw up to five missiles slam into houses in separate villages, killed seven “foreigners” - a term that usually means al-Qaeda - but locals also said that three children lost their lives. ”...
Where do you go from here? Where does eric Kirk go from here? Where do the hopenchngeybots go from here? Where's Code Pink?
Will you finally wake up?
Wake up to what, Rose? Approval of an American Zionist war against Muslims? I, like many in America and around the world are closely watching what Obama does and if he does follow Bush's Zionist religious war against Muslims who are resisting Western takeovers, (Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, so far,..) Obama will lose considerable support from the liberal-Left in America, in Europe and all around the world. He cannot afford to do that and keep his currency of "Hope" alive.
ReplyDeleteRose, you are my friend too and I'm glad I can be hopping mad with your political views but still know whatever political differences we have we each will not allow those differences to stop our friendship. Yes, I am "strongly", "fanatically"? against religious warfare that has been created by Zionist Jews and Evangelical Christians in America that has been now institutionalized by our unconditional support of an immoral rogue state of European and American creation, the European-American Jewish colony, Israel. Israel is stuck smack in the midst of Arab Muslim Middle East, a fanatical religious colony whose soul aim it seems is to oust non-Jews from their homeland to make way for Jewish immigrants from all over the world. Israel was created by a brand-new U.N. that was totally controlled by the Big Five powers left after WW II. Israel was created by imposing the will of these Big Five powers on the U.N. to pass what would never have passed had the U.N. followed its own legal charter protecting the sovereign rights, the human rights, and national aspirations of indigenous populations. It was a crooked deal from the start, Rose, because not a single Palestinian was ever consulted and Palestinians were the majority population of Palestine since about 150 A.D. The U.N. unilaterally foisted a "homeland" for European Jewish holocaust survivors supposedly, but historically less than 3% of those holocaust survivors elected to go to Israel. The great majority of Israeli immigrants were imported from Europe and America primarily, i.e. a repeat of the European invasion of the Americas where they came in swarms like ants and with superior weapons genocided their way to power over Native America. Same with Australia and New Zealand but not with Africa where the indigenous population was still in the great majority as it is in Palestine surrounded by Arab nations housing millions of Palestinian refugees, some in their third generation now since Israeli drove them out of Palestine using terrorism tactics.
Rose, you know I have worked too long with Native Americans now to ever ever be able to justify European colonization and takeover of native populations. Yes, Native Americans haven't a ghost of a chance to reclaim American sovereignty because their numbers are far too small now but look at Africa to see what will happen to Israel. Palestinian outnumber Israelis and always will unless total genocide is the aim of Israel which it cannot get away with in the 21st century. 60 years is not long enough for Palestinians to give up their will to reclaim their land from foreign invaders. Until Americans like you understand the will of Palestinians is the same order that one saw in Vietnam where they too had been under the thumb of foreign invaders for many decades but having the will to overcome they did despite the incredible destruction of their peoples and their land. They won in the end and threw out the foreign occupation and so will Palestinians. It is only a matter of time as Palestinians and the Arab Middle East knows.
What then, Rose? Given this reality, what then with American support of Israel? Did American support apartheid South Africa to the end? No, they pulled out when world opinion was against them and that same situation will be happening in Palestine to Israelis once Americans know what Israelis have done to Palestinians to create such lasting antagonism. Gaza is only the tip of the fascist Israeli occupation iceberg.
I hope a different U.N. today is called upon to revisit the establishment resolution of Israel and demands Israel comply with the original U.N. mandates or dissolve letting Palestine return to Palestinian majority rule.
Israel is the victim here, Stephen. Pure and simple. But it looks to me like they are dead - Obama's cozying up to the other side is very troubling. They should not have agreed to a ceasefire and allowed Hamas time to rearm.
ReplyDeleteThe sad thing with the Palestinians, and the Indians too, really, is all this dwelling on the past. Move forward. Be one. We're human. Not races, and religions, Human.
The conflict will never end. You can see that by reading the blogs here. Mankind's warring spirit is alive and well. Hatreds persist. It will never end.
Stephen is out to lunch as usual (super bigot).
ReplyDeleteI wonder what caused his hatred of Jewish people and Israel? I guess it doesn't matter since there is very little chance he will change.
Once again, Rose, you spout Zionist brainwashing bullshit--"Israel is the victim here", what planet are you pro-Israelis on, anyway?
ReplyDeleteWhy is world press reporting "Israel Has Fewer Friends Than Ever, Even In America", Rose? Is it because poor picked on Israelis behaved so splendidly or is it because the world press has been forced to look squarely at Israel's record of grinding Palestinian society into the ground with human rights violations up the yin yang for decades and decades, add a couple of massacres on top of it, like Shantilla, and Sabra and now, Gaza?
"The conflict will never end. You can see that by reading the blogs here. Mankind's warring spirit is alive and well. Hatreds persist. It will never end."
Rose, it is your denial of human hope that is at the bottom of your inability to have any understanding or empathy for the victims of European racists going around the world destroying non-European societies to make way for European white people to own and control lands far from Europe. You just don't see it. It doesn't register on your moral radar that there's any problem. And that is because you refuse to dig into the historical facts that create lasting hatreds between peoples. You refuse to research the historical facts that have created the Israel problem for America and the world. You will dig deep and hard for facts to use against political opponents but I really can't see any such zeal in you for researching the history of Zionism and Israel. You rely without questioning, the information Zionists want you and Americans to know about Israel and Palestinians. You give them a blanket pass in their information with checking to see if there was another side of the story. And there was and still is.
"The sad thing with the Palestinians, and the Indians too, really, is all this dwelling on the past. Move forward. Be one. We're human. Not races, and religions, Human."
"Human" means to me behaving humanely. I don't see Israelis behaving humanely, Rose, and neither does most of the world now. You and fellow Israeli supporters are getting the same cold shoulder supporters of white supremists South Afrikaaners got when it became apparent to the world, like in Palestine, that these people were racists criminals without regard to human dignity or life when it wasn't the right color.
For Israel, it's being the right religion to belong. I dunno, Rose, I've just worked too long with Native Americans to have any sympathy for racist ideologies that end up hurting large numbers of human beings. The repercussions from the Indian Island massacre period can still be actively alive in local tribes. I've seen it too often to ignore it with your blithe, "well, let's all just forget the past and move on.." easily said by the winning white person but look at the lasting trouble winning has caused the lives of local tribal people. They have to deal now with these U.S. imposed Tribal Council governments which any NA will tell you never guarantees anything but eternal family feuds because the tribal identities are all mixed up and confused. That's why the good works of one tribal council can and are regularly overturned by the next tribal council. There's no continuity in tribal government because they've all lost their original tribal identities and ways of tribal leadership developed over thousands of years that worked.
Until white Americans have demonstrated their willingness to share power with non-whites as the election of Barack Obama shows a willingness to do, white Americans will continue to hold opinions of non-whites like you do, Rose, that non-whites victimized by white people need to get over themselves and plug in to white supremist rulership of their lives. Some people resist this type of racist white people winners rule ideology oddly enough..
Share power with non-whites???? What?
ReplyDeleteYou mean condone suicide/homicides? Strapping vests on teenagers and sending them to bomb families in pizza parlors?
Sorry, Stephen. I'm not in favor of becoming a nation that endorses and tolerates honor killings, beheadings, suicide/homicide bombings, burkhas, Sharia law, and all the rest.
We stand alone as the beacon of proof that all people can live together in peace. It is very simple. Very clear.
And it is doable, as is proven by the many Palestinians and other peoples who have moved here and who live in peace and prosperity. With full rights. And no need to strap death vests on their teenage sons.
In this country, many 'non-whites' share power. Serve as elected officials, and in every other capacity.
And, btw, what's with lumping ALL whites into one label anyways? You know, there are as MANY different subgroups in the 'white' community as there are in the 'brown' community. It's only by lumping them all together into one big category that you get your tyranny.
Remember the Irish?
Do you deny that Israel only bombs in RESPONSE to repeated and unrelenting attacks? Do you think they would continue if the Palestinians honored their agreements and STOPPED killing? Honestly?
You are the barbarian as well when you support the kinds of death to innocent Muslim children, women, old men, who comprise most of the targets of U.S. attacks against Iraq as well as Israel's
ReplyDeleteI was wondering. How much does your useful idiot services go for now a days? I know the Soviets got useful idiots for cheap, almost, back in the day, but I was wondering if the price had changed since I'm looking for a cadre of useful idiots to create propaganda support for the war against Islamic terrorists.
The requirements for this job will be.
1. Idealistic
2. Favoring emotion over logical analysis.
3. Unable to differentiate real politics from political promises.
4. Unable to tell lies from truth.
5. And finally, will support mass murderers by hobbling their enemies through the accusation that the enemies of mass murderers are mass murderers. It is required that the candidate in question must forget about why mass murderers have other mass murderers as enemies, when in fact, they often produce mutually beneficial alliances (Hitler + Stalin, Left + Islamic Jihad, British government + Sharia law).
So if I opt one day to become Muslim,shall I be punished?
If you try to convert back or away from Islam, yes. But we won't have to do anything, since your fellow Muslims will punish you for us.
You are an extremist in your opinions and I can't change
Says who? The guy that represents himself as a product of enlightened values when he is just a tool for racist ideology, group identity Balkanization, and Soviet Union demoralization? Come on.
How many Iraqis were killed by Bush Sr.'s war, Rose? How many Iraqis have been killed by Bush Jr.'s war, Rose? Do you even know?
You don't give a damn about the Iraqis. Stop pretending that you do. When the US military under Petraeus was helping Iraqis fight off mass murderers and child killers, you did everything in your power to obstruct and sabotage those efforts. And now here you try to claim some kind of moral superiority over those of us that supported Iraq's liberation from Saddam and AQ. Do you really look in a mirror each morning and congratulate yourself on your efforts to prevent Iraqi women and children from being saved by American efforts, solely because Americans are "white supremacists" in your view? Will you really drink a toast to the killers of men, women, and children, Al Qaeda operatives that torture captured Americans and captured Iraqi civilians, solely because of your vindictive politics towards "whites".
That's not exactly an ethical position, Stephen. You don't have a right to block the security of Iraqis just because you think you know what is best for them. They are dying in Iraq, they have died in Iraq, and you have done nothing but help their killers and hobble their allies.
Look at our real history, Rose, before you start parading American mores as being better than the Taliban's.
You have no idea what our real history is. It has all been whitewashed for the consumption of people like you.
For every Israeli child killed 4 or 5 Palestinian children are killed.
And do you know why Hamas ensures that the ratio is so disproportional in that fashion? Because they know that it will be useful to convince people like you, Stephen, of the justice of their cause. You are easy to manipulate like that. And if it takes the lives of 5 Palestinian children, Hamas will gladly sign off on that. Which means the blood of those children are on whose hands, Hamas' or yours?
For the record, I am of Jewish ancestry, the majority of my Jewish ancestry is Polish so I too had relatives who died in the Jewish
This is why Jews are picked on historically. There are always going to be plenty of Judas Jews around that will throw their own people to the wolves. This makes the Jewish culture very promotional of Leftist causes. More than 60% of Jews here in America voted Democrat. Israel was not their primary interest. Abortion, gun rights, and socialism were.
No number of Ariel Sharons or Benjamin Netanyahus can prevent the other Jews in their culture from messing everything up. They can delay it, they can even fight off the enemies of all Jews, but eventually the Jews fall because 1. they either ignore the problem or 2. they help the problem get worse. The Jewish tragedy has been going on for thousands of years. Forever being chased from one land to another, by one king or another political system.
America is not at war with Mexico and Canada because our wars produce permanent solutions and not temporary solutions, like the wars that Leftists crave. This endless cycle of violence that people want to sit in front of to watch because it is more entertaining and fulfilling than questioning their own indoctrinated upbringing.
Stephen, you are my friend, and you are a good man
How is a "person" that thinks you are a supporter of killing children and civilian massacres your "friend", Rose?
Once again, Rose, you spout Zionist brainwashing bullshit
A person that won't even take your views as an honest assessment given your experiences and beliefs, Rose, is a "friend"? No, it seems more like your opponent and enemy. Someone interested in destroying, not helping.
Why is world press reporting "Israel Has Fewer Friends Than Ever, Even In America", Rose?
It is cause Jews like you vote Democrat... what is there that is so hard to figure out concerning that part? Democrats aren't friends of Israel. They didn't support what Nixon did when Israel found itself in another war with the Arabs. But Jews will keep on voting Democrat and not Republican, because Israel is not all that important compared to the indoctrination ideology people like you, Stephen, have gone through.
Do you deny that Israel only bombs in RESPONSE to repeated and unrelenting attacks? Do you think they would continue if the Palestinians honored their agreements and STOPPED killing? Honestly?
As I said, Stephen doesn't care about lives lost. This has gone far beyond that. And here is the analysis of why and how.
Yuri Bezmenov
The other pieces of analysis I'll post after this one.
And that is because you refuse to dig into the historical facts that create lasting hatreds between peoples.
ReplyDeleteHere's a true, as opposed to Leftist propaganda, historical fact about what creates lasting hatreds between people.
Comanches and Honor
Analysis on the exact methodology of Leftist indoctrination and how Gramsci fits in
I believe these resources will address the fundamental issues Stephen raised. When I say "fundamental' I mean the philosophical premises that power Stephen's position and NOT the specific policy disagreements over Bush, Iraq, Israel, and so forth.
If you want to know where Stephen "gets" his stuff, so to speak, I highly recommend you read the links and material I have provided. If you want more background on the counter-points to the Stephen's historically based arguments, I suggest the same.
"The clash of ideas is the sound of freedom."
ReplyDelete(Lady Bird Johnson)
Palestinian civilians: Hamas made us stay in homes used by gunmen
ReplyDeletePalestinian civilians have accused Hamas of forcing them to stay in homes from which gunmen shot at Israeli soldiers during the recent hostilities in Gaza, the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera reported Thursday.
More than 1,250 Palestinians were reportedly killed during Israel's offensive against Hamas in the coastal territory. Israel has been harshly criticized for the large number of civilians among the Palestinian dead, of whom they numbered more than half according Gaza officials.
But the Italian paper also quoted a doctor at Gaza City's Shifa Hospital as disputing the number of Palestinians said to have been killed in the campaign.
"It's possible that the death toll in Gaza was 500 or 600 at the most, mainly youths aged 17 to 23 who were enlisted by Hamas - who sent them to their deaths," he said.
War Is Deceit: Gaza doc says Palestinian death toll inflated
A Tal al-Hawa resident told the newspaper's reporter, "Armed Hamas men sought out a good position for provoking the Israelis. There were mostly teenagers, aged 16 or 17, and armed. They couldn't do a thing against a tank or a jet. They knew they are much weaker, but they fired at our houses so that they could blame Israel for war crimes."
A Staged Scene in a Gaza Hospital? - Update: CNN Yanks Video
faked CPR attempts, and more....
Some Gaza Residents Blaming Hamas, Quietly
ReplyDelete“I used to support Hamas because they fought for our country, for Palestine,” says Sadala. Hamas stood for a new start, for an end of corruption, which had spread like cancer under the moderate Fatah. In the 2006 elections Hamas won the majority with their message of change, said Sadala, who earned a living in the building business. Gesticulating wildly, the 52-year-old surveyed the ruins of the bedroom: “That is the change that they brought about. We were blasted back 2,000 years.”
And why do they have to do it quietly? Why do they fear for their lives? Because they can be killed for voicing their opinion.
Unlike here. In evil America.
The people from Beit Lahia are starting from zero again: children load wood from broken trees onto their back. Their mothers bend over fires and bake bread. Young women carry water in petrol canisters. Only the men stand around looking numb, smoking, staring blankly. Many people here, like Sandala, had placed their hopes in Hamas -- now they are gazing into nothing, ideologically as well as materially.
ReplyDelete'Who Has Won Here?'
All the stuff you quoted Rose matters nothing to the demoralized contender.
ReplyDeleteThose that have been demoralized and broken of their faith in the virtue and strength of Western society will always justify such actions on the part as Hamas as being a direct consequence of white/Western/israeli oppression.
Hamas does things like that because they were "forced" to do so, Rose. They have no ethical responsibility because, just like with noblesse oblige, you can't expect the savages to differentiate good from evil. The only people that can differentiate good from evil, the only people that can do evil acts, is America, the West, white man, Israel, and so forth.
Hamas is not an ethical agent under their eyes. Hamas is a creation of Israel. Just like 9/11 and AQ is a creation of Bush, if you ask the Left. Thus, all the evil and other actions done by Hamas and AQ can be directly attributed to Israel/Bush.
Do you not see how their logic works? How they can justify themselves? How they can claim they have clean hands?
In a contest over morality, of course we are going to lose out to Hamas and their ideological allies. Of course we will be seen as worse than the Taliban or just as bad. Why? Because we are expected to know right from wrong, to know evil from good.
All those Middle Easterners? They don't know right from wrong because they have suffered so much under the Israelis and American invasions that they have been "forced" to do the things that they have done. It is our fault, because we have moral standards, and it is not their fault, because they have lost their moral standards.
And this is proof to those like Stephen that this means we can't judge Hamas. That we do not have the civilizational authority and legitimacy to make judgments about Hamas, an entity that is incapable of making moral judgments.
It would be the same thing if a person said to you, Rose, that sharks and tigers are evil and cruel and thus must be punished. We would say that they are animals and thus incapable of free will and making choices between good and evil. Regardless of what a tiger or shark does, regardless of who they kill or eat or maul, we place the ethical responsibility solely upon the human handlers and observers. We would advocate security but a refrain from vengeance or retribution. We would tell (Israel) to leave the tigers alone, that exterminating the species and killing the young is not ethical, is disproportionate.
To judge the tiger, we must first judge ourselves to be in the wrong.
Stephen would argue that this is a responsible position to take. That humans, because of their power over tigers and sharks, should take the major share of blame and responsibility.
So now all that remains is for Stephen to justify why we should treat the Taliban and Hamas the same way we treat dangerous animals.
All this talk about "Zionism" and "Western Imperialism" are nothing but sound and fury. They serve no purpose other than to cloud people's minds and prevent them from achieving clarity. In reality, these issues can be distilled down to some very simple and fundamental points.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteNo, they pulled out when world opinion was against them and that same situation will be happening in Palestine to Israelis once Americans know what Israelis have done to Palestinians to create such lasting antagonism. Gaza is only the tip of the fascist Israeli occupation iceberg.
ReplyDeleteSome people believe that if you rape children and bash out the heads of infant girls, that this is wrong, regardless of anything else.
Others believe that these actions can be conditionally "justified" so long as some other party did something as bad or worse to you.
I do not believe in the latter and I find the latter category of ethical standards rather monstrous.
Two wrongs don't make a right, and if they ever did, you'd have the modern Left. He who would defend, aid, or verbally support the likes of Samir Kuntar have no legitimacy or authority with which to question America, Israel, or those with our beliefs.
I love mountain lions. But if they are killing your livestock, or threatening your kids, you have no choice but to shoot them.
ReplyDeleteIt's sad, because it is a beautiful wild animal. But this isn't a Disney movie. It's real life.
And Muslim extremists are not characters in a book, or points of esoteric discussion, Stephen, they will saw off your head as quickly as they would mine - on camera, laughing and chanting as they do it - to show the world - Nicholas Berg. Daniel Pearl, little schoolgirls... Americans do not that. Israelis do not do that.
This is interesting:
ReplyDelete◼ Venezuela voted against ceasefire in Gaza
Venezuela voted against ceasefire in Gaza (resolution 1860) during the UN's General Assembly celebrated on 16 January. Venezuela's vote, through Ambassador to the UN Jorge Valero, contradicts policy dictated by President Chavez, who had Israel's Ambassador, and its diplomatic corp, expelled from Venezuela on 7 January.
Rose, I don't kow tow to anyone on earth. You are an extremist in your opinions and I can't change that but I can point out your gross hypocrisy and others posting here where you refuse to look at the statistics of our part in killing innocent Muslims and taking control of their lands, something that has been going on since the end of the Ottoman Empire.
ReplyDeleteAs to Rose being a hypocrite and an extremist, I won't comment on that part except to the extent that I already have. What I will say is that you, Stephen, will have been proven to "kow tow" to facts and solid arguments if you don't respond to at least some of the things either Rose or I have brought to the table.
Ever hear of "diplomacy"? You wanna be like Bush and just leave the table by ignoring the "extremists"?