Wednesday, December 26, 2007

Willits Council votes to repeal Measure G

Pretty interesting. Three stories...

At a special meeting, the Willits City Council voted to send a letter to the Mendocino County Board of Supervisors urging them to place a measure on the June 2008 ballot to repeal Measure G and in support of the recently passed county ordinance restricting marijuana cultivation.

Few members of the public attended the Thursday, December 20 evening meeting and only Vice Mayor Larry Stranske, Councilman Greg Kanne and Councilwoman Tami Jorgensen were present representing the council. The vote was unanimous.

The meeting notice was posted at Willits City Hall on Wednesday and met the minimum notification requirements of the Brown Act. The special meeting was considered necessary to allow Willits to provide input to the County Board of Supervisors prior to its meeting on January 8.

One member of the public spoke in opposition to the proposed council action, one spoke in support and one attempted to discuss another matter but was silenced when he refused to stick to the topic.

Measure G passed in 2000 with 58.5 percent of the votes. The measure basically instructed county government to ignore marijuana use by anyone growing or using less than 25 plants whether for medical or recreational use. About 71 percent of the county registered voters cast ballots in the 2000 election...
Read the whole story
By Linda Williams/TWN Staff Writer
Article Launched: 12/26/2007 10:50:44 AM PST

'Pot docs' issuing 'Get Out of Jail Free' cards
...While most think of cancer and AIDS when hearing of medical marijuana, in recent years most marijuana recommendations have been issued for far less serious illnesses by a small cadre of "pot docs." Medical marijuana recommendations seem to be evolving into Get Out of Jail Free cards rather than treatment for serious medical conditions....

Medical marijuana cards

There are 17,710 valid medical marijuana cards issued for patients and primary caregivers in California, according to the California Department of Health Care Services as of November 21, 2007. The cards are administered through each county's public health department.

As of June 2007, there were 562 valid patient-only Mendocino County marijuana cards and an additional 198 primary caregiver county cards, according to the Mendocino Department of Public Health.


I'm just wondering what this all means. It looks like the 215 scammers are about to ruin it for all the legitimate "medical users." But that's if you still believe that that was what 215 was all about. Most of the people I see with 215 cards are young healthy college students. But people are tired of grow houses, fires, and the criminal element, tired of people using 215 to grow and then sell, making huge untaxed incomes.

So what is the solution? Bandaid approaches, trying to fix what is wrong with 215? Or legalization/decriminalization? And is that really a solutions, or are there unimagined consequences?

Humboldt got a 99 plant limit, with a 100 sq ft caveat - how did that transfer into whole house grows, xeroxed 215 cards, and the situations where 5 215 cards tacked on the wall push past all those limits?

With what's happening in Arcata, and now this in Mendocino - I'm just wondering.
Looks like Oregon has a six mature plants and up to 24 ounces of usable marijuana limit, and "a well thought out policy - seems to address just about anything & everything CA never thought of. The government website says Oregon is often contacted by other states wanting to use the OMMA as a model." ht: RS


  1. Right up front, I don't think marijuana is medicine. That being said; it does seem like regular people are getting fed up with this 215 scam that makes money for a few, and causes grief for many.

    The Pot doc's make $175 to $250 for each "recommendation".

    The "hydroponic" or grow stores that have sprung up.

    Damage to rentals by fires, water damage, cutting holes in walls, and mold.

    danger to nieghborhoods from the violence associated with marijuana cultivation.

    And tainting the youth. Why go to college when you can make soo much money growing dope, and not working that hard, or having to study.

    Arcata deserves what it gets. The city council(s) and police administration have allowed this to get out of control. shame on them !

  2. Full disclosure: I used to arrest violators of the drug laws but have never tried the stuff. Booze used to supply the need for an occasional "buzz" but even that has lost its allure as the body has aged. Marijuana prohibition is a win-win situation for crooks and bureaucratic careerists. At $2,500.00+/lb. anyone willing to brave the minimal risk of providing the product to willing clients can avoid the inconvenience of taxation and prosper. If it is decriminalized think $5.00/lb for processed cannabis. Any adult choosing to introduce dope into their own body should not be a criminal for that act alone and as with booze, it should be no excuse for committing any criminal act.

  3. Well said, Leonidas. Wollf is nobig ganja fan himself, but "something" has to be done to destroy the criminal element.

    When Prohibition ended, so did a lot of the Gangster problems.....yes, I realize they migrated to gambling, now legal, and this Drug problem.

    Tax the stuff, regulate the stuff, and the bad guys will have to find another niche.

    Maybe Carbon Credits?

  4. There is indeed a petition in circulation,get a hold of blogger Fred for materials.

  5. mresquan, I would gladly sign the petition but fortunately I no longer have a Kalifornia residence address.

  6. I'll sign a petition to get rid of Konkler. Detroit maybe? Iowa?

  7. A little off the subject but .....

    What's the skinny on Schectman (PVG's good buddy) and his dealings with Josh Hedlund? What's the status of Hedlund's federal pot case? did Schectman ever pay his former interns's?

  8. There are no easy answers, but this is my attempt at one...

    Decriminalize use, but keep cracking down on the large-scale growers and big-time dealers. Additionally, only allow legal medical grows outdoors or in fire-safe, regularly inspected grow facilities. We have to stop throwing people in jail for stupid personal choices, but we shouldn't completely legalize it, otherwise we'll have to deal with corporations pushing it on kids and everyone else.

  9. Interesting.

    That would be like booze and cigarettes, essentially. What's the difference - morally - between a corporation and a pot doc prescribing willy nilly? And if it goes into large scale approved grow facilities, then that would ultimately become a corporation. Not that I want to get into the evil corporation "debate" here...

  10. how dare people try to make money in a capitalist country??

    all of the complaints that are made here are about people making money. sure, there were a couple of fires at grows, but most of the whining is about how pot brings in money to the local economy.

    i guess that the local economy is so great that we can turn away money.

    jealousy of your neighbors income/wealth is childish......your neighbor's wealth doesn't hurt you!!!!

  11. You're so full of BS, otherme. It's tiring. This isn't about making money legally and you know it. I don't know how you fired your brain cells, but if you want to have a real discussion, you're going to have to try harder.

    Ya SURE are sensitive about the illegal grow industry, defending ol' Schectman and Hedlund, while your usual rant includes hating anyone who makes money legitimately. You'll probably be happier at Heraldo's blog.

  12. hating people who make money legally? what? where did that come from? name ONE person or industry that ive spoken against!!!!!

    im a person with a job in the timber industry. im 35 years old. since the time i was 14, ive seen people making money growing pot. why is this an issue now? because the PEOPLE voted for it(PROP 215)?

    rose, stop defending the establishment at all costs. you cheer for maxxam as my friends all lose their jobs. then you want to throw them in jail for supplementing their incomes LEGALLY(PROP 215).

    im sure jesus would have hated the working class too....

  13. I cheer for Maxxam?

    Not exactly. But exposure to Salzman, and learning what Shellenberger had been doing, and Miller, et al - I came to realize the kind of attack that company has been under. There is no parallel anywhere. A decade plua. A concerted and ongoing attack that culminated in getting a DA to file a prosecution.

    No matter who it is, I think that is wrong. The lies and deceit, whilst all the while hurling accusations at Maxxam is quite amazing.

    Now to see them crying crocodile tears and professing to care about the Palco workers is almost obscene.

    People who voted for 215 did NOT VOTE FOR ILLEGAL GROWERS. GEEZ!

    But, if we were honest, it would be legal and not this sham that is 215.

  14. rose,
    maxxam was able to INCREASE their timber yields after taking over....maxxam took the money and ran... WAKE UP!!!!!!!

    who the hell are miller, shelleenburger or salzman??? ive never seen there names in the PALCO you really think that the executives of a company have no control over the success of a company? if so, why are you on the blogs accussing other blogger of "bringing down" PALCO????

    grow up

  15. rose,
    i do feel for you must be humiliating to have all of your hippy neighbors to be making more money than you....thats the real issue here isnt it???? and they make their own hours too!!!!

    wasnt there a comandment about not coveting thy neighbors stuff??

  16. It wouldn't really be like booze and cigarettes. They are legal, not merely decriminalized. What I'm proposing is that we stop arresting people for getting high. That is very different from allowing companies to produce and market marijuana products for the general public. I don't want to see the stuff become any more prevalent than it already is.

    That being said, we have to recognize that there are legitimate medical uses for marijuana. Many people really do need it, so it has to be grown somewhere. But because of fire hazards and shady operations we need to have tougher regulations and oversight for the legal medical grows. I don't care if corporations are doing the growing, as long as it is only for medical use -- that's the important part.

    As for the doctors that prescribe willy nilly: that really doesn't have anything to do with marijuana. There are doctors that do that with other drugs too. Of course, that doesn't excuse it, but I think it's important to realize that the problem is not with a particular drug.

    It would be foolish to repeal 215 simply because some people that don't need marijuana are getting it. If we used that reasoning when addressing the abuse of other prescription drugs there wouldn't be any medications left for people that need them.

  17. Look, we cured most diseases, killed the wolves, dispersed the indians, and have too much food. AS a result the herd is bottom heavy. Legalize pretty much everything for persons over age
    21, with the proviso that no public funds will be expended for medical or psychological care as a result of substance abuse. Then let nature take it's course.

  18. Do they really arrest someone for "getting high" ? Really ?

    But they do arrest people for growing dope, selling dope, cheating on their taxes and so on.

    As for Theotherme (sameoldick, Britanny Spears makes more money than me. So what? For that matter so does Rob Arkley. I'm not jealous of either one, nor do I hate them for it.

  19. "But they do arrest people for growing dope, selling dope, cheating on their taxes and so on."

    Not exactly true,9 out of 10 pot arrests are possession based,with about a third of those for selling pot.

  20. Shane: " with corporations pushing it on kids and everyone else."
    Maybe you could supply us with evidence other than a visceral of hatred of "eeevil corporations"?

    theotherme (Mark?): "jealousy of your neighbors income/wealth is childish......your neighbor's wealth doesn't hurt you!!!! ONE person or industry that ive spoken against!!!!!"
    How about eeevil corporations or cops?

    mresquan: "...9 out of 10 pot arrests are possession based,with about a third of those for selling pot."
    Of course they are, because "possession" is called "a lesser and included offense" while cultivation and sales are more difficult to prove. Gags might even consider letting his hippie buddies plea bargain down to double parking.

  21. I actually don't have a visceral hatred of all corporations. There are some that I support. You should learn more about my political views before you make assumptions like that. I do, however, hate cigarette companies. They will be pushing marijuana as soon as it's legal. It is documented that British American Tobacco (BAC) has considered lacing cigarettes with marijuana if it is ever legalized. It's not a huge leap to assume that other companies would do the same thing. Pot would become instantly available to a lot more people. In my opinion, that would not be a positive development. If I have time later I'll try to find the BAC info online and post a link here.

  22. pogo,
    did you even read any of my posts?? where in the world did i speak out about cops or corporations?? i know most of the local cops and i work for a corporation..........

    and why would you think my name was mark? too funny

    that rant said alot about you...

  23. shane: "I actually don't have a visceral hatred of all corporations."

    Only successful ones?

    " There are some that I support."

    How do you "support" them? by buying things that you need from them?

    " You should learn more about my political views before you make assumptions like that."

    Sorry, the only available data are the hare brained comments you post here. Please direct us to a better source.

    " I do, however, hate cigarette companies. They will be pushing marijuana as soon as it's legal....(BAC) has considered lacing cigarettes with marijuana if it is ever legalized. Pot would become instantly available to a lot more people. In my opinion, that would not be a positive development. "

    By all means do not patronize cigarette companies. Warning labels have been on cigarette packs since 23 years before your birth as well as criminal penalties for sales to minors. Lacing cigarettes with legal pot is an old idea. It has been done with menthol and other substances as well. For your information package labeling requirements have also been around for some time. As for availability of pot; any middle school pupil in the county can direct you to as much of it as you want. We respect your opinions but like most leftists and some right wingers you insist on forcing them on others.

    theotherme: " did you even read any of my posts?? where in the world did i speak out about cops or corporations?? i know most of the local cops and i work for a corporation.........."

    Yep, read your posts. They sound very similar to others here. Use of a blogger account would probably clear up some of the confusion caused by anonymous tags (e.g. who is the OTHER otheryou?). Lots of folks do not use their real names but a consistent blogger tag eliminates confusion.

  24. robin shelley12/30/2007 7:16 AM

    It's been 10 or 11 years since Prop. 215 passed & absolutely no one with the power & authority to do so has ever taken steps to "implement a plan to provide for the safe & affordable distribution of marijuana" as mandated by Prop. 215. We're seeing the results of that neglect now. Good luck to us in sorting it all out.

  25. robin shelley12/30/2007 9:02 AM

    PROP. 215:

    Section 1. Section 11362.5 is added to the California Health and Safety Code, to read:

    11362.5. (a) This section shall be known and may be cited as the Compassionate Use Act of 1996.
    (b) (1) The people of the State of California hereby find and declare that the purposes of the Compassionate Use Act of 1996 are as follows:

    (A) To ensure that seriously ill Californians have the right to obtain and use marijuana for medical purposes where that medical use is deemed appropriate and has been recommended by a physician who has determined that the persons health would benefit from the use of marijuana in the treatment of cancer, anorexia, AIDS, chronic pain, spasticity, glaucoma, arthritis, migraine or any other illness for which marijuana provides relief.
    (B) To ensure that patients and their primary caregivers who obtain and use marijuana for medical purposes upon the recommendation of a physician are not subject to criminal prosecution or sanction.

    (C) To encourage the federal and state governments to implement a plan for the safe and affordable distribution of marijuana to all patients in medical need of marijuana.

    (2) Nothing in this act shall be construed to supersede legislation prohibiting persons from engaging in conduct that endangers others, nor to condone the diversion of marijuana for non-medical purposes.

    (c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, no physician in this state shall be punished, or denied any right or privilege, for having recommended marijuana to a patient for medical purposes.

    (d) Section 11357, relating to the possession of marijuana, and Section 11358, relating to the cultivation of marijuana, shall not apply to a patient, or to a patient's primary caregiver, who possesses or cultivates marijuana for the personal medical purposes of the patient upon the written or oral recommendation or approval of a physician.

    (e) For the purposes of this section, Primary caregiver means the individual designated by the person exempted under this act who has consistently assumed responsibility for the housing, health or safety of that person.

    Sec. 2. If any provision of this measure or the application thereof to any person or circumstance is held invalid, that invalidity shall not affect other provisions or applications of the measure which can be given effect without the invalid provision or application, and to this end the provisions of this measure are severable.

  26. 9:02,

    many cannabis clubs exist locally(at least 4 in arcata) and around the state..are they not safe or affordable????

    if you dont like dealing with the clubs, im sure that if you ask around, you can find some safe, affordable herb in Humboldt County. this place is famous for its medicinal herb....its more affordable here than anywhere else in the nation...

  27. robin shelley12/30/2007 5:15 PM

    I don't know, Tom. You're the one who knows everything about everything. You tell me. Are the cannabis clubs safe & affordable?

  28. tom? i was called mark earlier on this you people realize that anyone in the WORLD with internet access can read and comment here?.......typical eureka mentality

    robin, you posted earlier saying that safe, affordable herb needed to be made availiable based on state the clubs not meet the standard?....and no, i dont know if the clubs are safe or affordable. i would assume that safety would be increased with the use of a club vs. buying from a individual. as for affordability, im sure that the clubs charge what the market will bear. as it should be

  29. robin shelley12/30/2007 9:05 PM

    I did not say that "safe, affordable herb needed to be made available based on state law". I said that no one with the power or authority to do so has ever taken steps to "implement a plan to provide for the safe & affordable distribution of marijuana" as mandated by Prop. 215.

    I have no idea if any clubs meet "the standard" because I don't know what "the standard" is. I also have no idea what pot costs in a dispensary or on the street.

    I do know that a pharmacist friend of mine who opened a dispensary in Ukiah right after Prop. 215 passed endured arson, threats, federal invesitgation, indictment, & court hearings in S.F. before finally throwing in the towel in 2005 because of the corruption in the medical marijuana movement. It was, she said, "too dangerous".

    Not long before my friend shut down, the only other pot dispensary owner I had ever known (& not very well, at that) was murdered in his own home. Two witnesses were left alive but the killers have never been found.

    A Ukiah Daily Journal article from a week or so ago reports the opening of a new dispensary in Ukiah. The article (by Rob Burgess) begins: "...Ukiah's newest & only medical marijuana dispensary figuratively opened its chain-link perimeter fence & its black steel reinforced doors for business... Aaron, the owner, refused to reveal his surname & said added security measures were a precaution to ward off attempts at thievery or worse. He said, 'The outside gate is always locked & patients come & knock when they want to come in. We've got several layers of security, including closed circuit cameras...'." Hardly a typical pharmacy & it would seem that customer safety is not the biggest concern. Aaron claims that his dispensary is not-for-profit &, as such, is not legally allowed to make a profit.

    "Tom" is an acronym for "theotherme". Aren't you glad you didn't call yourself "idon'tintendontelling"?

  30. Haha!

    Look, "Tom" - no one was calling you Mark, when we are talking to Mark, we are talking to - or responding to, mresquan, whose name is Mark, and who, though we often disagree with him, is a very good guy.

  31. robin,
    please post some links to the stories about the murdered pot dealer and the dealer who was threatened...

    "I did not say that "safe, affordable herb needed to be made available based on state law". I said that no one with the power or authority to do so has ever taken steps to "implement a plan to provide for the safe & affordable distribution of marijuana" as mandated by Prop. 215."

    that thought makes me dizzy when i read it....

    heres what i dont understand here: are you people arguing for more enforcment(which will equal highter prices), or are arguing for less enforcement(which will lower prices)......its a common economic argument. fiscal conservatives argue that regulation/enforcement is bad for business because it raises overhead...fiscal liberals would argue that raising prices through regulation/enforcement is a good thing since it provides beaurocratic jobs and inflates the price of goods...

  32. What we are saying is 215 is a collossal sham, with many unintended consequences, such as rampant grow houses, and crooks using it as a shield for their dealing.

    What we're saying is there is a trend where people are rising up and saying "This isn't what we voted for" and taking their neighborhoods back, and the beginnings of some sort of regulations to fix the problems and still allow the "compassionate" side to rule.

    Then we are discussing whether or not legalization is the answer - or whether it will bring with it similar unintended consequences.

    If you can set aside the labels you are so fond of, perhaps we can have a rational discussion.

  33. or is economic theory way above the heads of rose and her minions?

    if so, maybe we should just keep gleening over her boyfriend, paul...we tend to get obsessed with things that we become enemies with.....ive tried to demonize ex-lovers. isnt that whats really goin on?

  34. rose,
    no one in arguing whether or not to overturn prop 215... it would never happen, it passed with a huge majority.....

    people are mad about the $$$$ rose...reread the posts on this thread. other than ONE fire, everyone is complaining about $$$$....doctors making money(who woulda thunk?), growers making money, dealers making money, grow shops making money, PGE making money........the debate here is about MONEY, not whether or not to overturn prop 215. you cant just change the subject in the middle of a debate.....childish

  35. rose,
    the fact that you want to supress the local economy doesnt suprise me a are the same person cheerleading for palco workers to lose their jobs....

  36. Well, you're right about one thing - we're not talking about overturning prop 215. Other than that, otherme, nice try, I guess, if what you are trying to do is just confuse the issue with nonsensical obfuscation. Until you get a grip on the topic and the answers you get, I don't see any point in your being here.

  37. rose,
    if we arent talking about overturning 215, what are we talking about? if we are talking about making the laws more clear, im sure that EVERYONE would agree on that!!!

    other than making the laws crystal clear, i dont know what else could be done without reforming prop 215. maybe full-on legalization? state run medical marijuana centers could be a solution? where would they get ther herb though? the dutch govt tried to undercut growers by growing thier own. it didnt work out too well. the govt grew inferior weed. no one bought it...

    id rather here suggestions than complaints..

  38. robin shelley12/31/2007 7:17 AM

    You can read about the arson fire at the Ukiah Cannabis Club at:

    and about the federal action taken against it at:

    You can also Google "Ukiah Cannabis Club" or "Ukiah Cannabis Buyer's Club" or the owners' names, Millie & Marvin Lehrman, & find more info.

    You can read about the murder of Les Crane at:

    or Google his name or "Mendo Remedies" to find out more.

    I doubt links are activated here so you'll have to type it in yourself.

    You can find out about the new club that's opened in Ukiah by searching the Ukiah Daily Journal archives for the story published on Dec. 15.

    Whether you understand it or not is not important, but there is a difference between "safe, affordable herb" & "safe & affordable distribution" of the stuff, which is what Prop. 215 calls for.

  39. robin shelley12/31/2007 7:39 AM


    The first link above is:

    You can find the definition of the word "acronym" at:

  40. robin shelley12/31/2007 9:21 AM

    The thing is, Tom, there is not just one marijuana issue. There are many issues surrounding the marijuana industry & money is just one of them. There isn't anyone who has posted here who seems anti-business, anti-corporation, anti-timber or anti-profit-making, as you allege, & nobody disputes that money is the driving force of business. But even you have to admit that any business conducted on the black market is dangerous &, in this particular instance, we are talking about a highly desirable drug, a lot of money, armed sellers & buyers &, I believe, unwanted competition... and you know, of course, as an economics expert, know how very important competition is to free enterprise even if it is illegal.

  41. robin,
    thank you for the links. much appreciated...

    as for the pot industry....

    a. what do you mean by "unwanted competition"? ive never heard that phrase used before..all competition is unwanted, yet healthy. thats the nature of competition. do you think that creatures in the wild "want" to compete for food and reproductive opprotunites?

    b. the same economic principles apply to "black" markets as they do to good ole white boy markets...

    c. all of the complaints on this issue revolve around "outsiders" making money here. jeaousy is OBVIOUSLY the motive behind this.i truly believe that anti-business motives are behind this. what else could it be?? religious extremists who think that ghosts tell them to rid the planet of cannabis??...if guns are the issue, why not fight agaisnt the second amendment? the murder in fortuna by "armed sellers and buyers" over the sale of firewood happened with guns too. are you suggesting that we ban firewood?

    robin, heres what i need from you. give me some suggestions to what you think should be DONE about this.i understand your bewilderment with the pot industry, but open communication will be the ony road to solution making...

  42. No, Tom, Theo, otherme - It's not about outsiders - it is about PEOPLE operating outside the law with impunity, cheating hte system, taking advantage of the good will and good intentions of others, about disrespecting other's property, disrespecting the law, avoiding taxes and all the other fees and assessments that others pay, and yes, it is also about the criminal element that they attract. That doesn't equate to taking guns away from law abiding citizens.

    Somehow you see this issue through distorted - sometimes I think deliberately distorted - lenses.

    There's something about men who choose to conduct this illegal lifestyle, risking their families lives in more ways than one... do you get that?

  43. first of all,i know more women who grow weed than men. women just tend to be nurturers like that.

    so, theres "something" about men who choose to conduct this illegal lifestyle?........ what is your point there?..........the ONLY thing that any pot dealers have in common is the desire for money....there is no certain "something" that unites all pot dealers other than the lack of jobs in the area that pay a living wage.

    im so confused as to what this is about!!! is it about people "taking advantage of others"?.....selling people pot that they WANT to buy is not taking advantage of people...

    or is it about avoiding taxes? the only possible solution to that arguement is legalization...

    or is it about the attracting of "criminal element" to the area? making pot legal would reduce that problem...people coming here to buy pot with their hard earned money wouldnt be considered criminals then, they would be called "tourists" or "consumers"....imagine how many people would visit here if we had open pot cafes like amsterdamn or vancuver bc...

    and you wonder why i see the issue distorted???? you cant even articulate what the problem IS, or even HINT at a solution.........

    i hate to beat a dead horse, but all i really hear on this thread is jealousy of one's nieghbor making lots of money.

  44. No theotherme...all I hear on this thread is decent people who want to live in a crime free decent community.

    All you do is drone on about how much it costs you to buy weed and how we the middle class must be jealous of you.

    Bizarre...your the commercial.."this is your brain and this is your brain on drugs."

  45. decent people who want to live in a crime free decent community?

    what crime have been committed against any citizen???sorry to break it to ya folks, if i smoke or grow weed, ITS A VICTIMLESS CRIME!!!

    why do i have a feeling that reigious nuts are behind this?? maybe ghosts told them to rid the evil weed from this planet....isnt that what you mean by "decent people"? you mean decent WHITE, GHOST LOVING folks dont you???

  46. robin shelley1/01/2008 10:25 PM


    a.) Unwanted competition is competition that is not wanted. I said what I meant. Not all competition is unwanted or healthy - otherwise we wouldn't have so-called professional sports - LOL. Competing in the business world is consciously learned behavior. Competing for food & reproduction opportunities in the wild is innate survival instinct.

    b.) Business is business but there are more inherent physical dangers in dealing with valuable black market products than there is in most legitimate business. There is a good ol' boy network within the marijuana industry, too.

    c.) If, by "outsiders" you mean Mexican & Asian drug cartels, then you may be at least partially right but I doubt anybody posting here is jealous of them. Jealousy has been the motive for a lot of things but I don't think it's what keeps people from wanting organized marijuana crime mobs to set up shop in their forests & neighborhoods.

    I am not a religious extremist. In fact, I am not religious at all. I don't believe in ghosts, I won't fight against the second amendment & I've never said a word about firewood to you or anyone else on this blog. You're the one who seems fanatical about this subject, Tom.

    Why is it that you "need" me to give you some suggestions about what I think should be done in regard to the marijuana problem? Are you in a position of public responsibility with the possible power or influence to actually make some substantial changes? Will my giving you suggestions make a difference &, if so, how? Open communication (& education) is important to resolving any issue, especially one as controversial as marijuana, & because it seems to have caused a deep rift in your community. Judging by your comments here & your quickness in jumping to unfounded conclusions as well as your penchant for slapping labels on people you apparently don't know, you seem close-minded to anyone's opinion but your own so I have to question your sincerity when I hear you advocating for "open communication".

    Here's what I want to know: who killed Les Crane & where is Chris Giauque?

  47. robin,

    what unfounded conclusions have i come to? what labels have i slapped on anyone?

    i was not referring to you when talking about people who believe in know people in the pot business, i value your thoughts.

  48. I agree with Robin - let's hear who killed Les Crane.

    But in the meantime otherme - let's just say we legalized pot.... and growers and dealers had to declare their income and pay their taxes, just like their hard working neighbors do.

    What would happen? Would they do so happily? Or would it take black helicopters to force the criminals who've been getting away with m___, well, getting away with making all this money tax-free to pay 50% of their income in taxes?

    That's one question. There are others.

  49. Robin - I just put your question up as a post. It seems Chris' brother has a website. Like Lisa's search for her sister Andrea LadeRoute, it is heartwrenching to realize the effects of these things on the family memebrs.

  50. robin shelley1/02/2008 9:10 AM

    You value my thoughts because I know people in the pot business?!! Are you sure it's not because of my looks? LOL! I may have to print out your comment & frame it because the people I know in the pot business sure as hell don't value my "thoughts" on the subject!

    Let's see... most recently, you have accused Rose of "cheerleading for PalCo workers to lose their jobs" & of "trying to dehumanize" someone. You've called posters here "fascists" & "religious freaks" & accused them of having "hatred toward their fellow man", of trying to "hurt the economy, incarcerate all non-violent offenders & increase the price of pot" & of being "jealous" of pot dealer's incomes. I've seen no evidence of such things here. You've even professed to know what Jesus would think or do about current events & claimed to know what he looked like! My personal favorite, though, is when you said, "Most people posting here are so whacked out on prescription drugs or have their noses so deep in the Bible..." I've suspected a time or two that you've even responded to yourself under yet another "anonymous" moniker. Have you?

    It amuses me that a strong proponent of the First Amendment such as yourself would use such provocative language while professing to wanting to open the lines of communication when, in fact, you know full well it has the opposite effect. You said you work for a corporation in the timber industry yet you use rudimentary radical activist tactics here in trying to deliberately confuse the subject & redirect the conversation. I would expect a softer approach from someone who depends on yet another controversial crop (timber) for his livlihood. It seems to me that you are more interested in a shouting match than any real communication or finding solutions, Tom. Or maybe you're just worried about changes in the economy. I know people often misplace blame & can do & say uncharacteristic things when their livlihoods & way of life are threatened.

    Not that it matters, but I am for legalization, regulation & taxation of marijuana & I am interested in knowing why two of the most vocal & visible medical marijuana advocates (in your area) have been, shall we say, eliminated.

  51. robin,
    thanks for the thoughts. just a few short responses.

    "Or maybe you're just worried about changes in the economy."
    very true. i am worried that the economy is going downhill in the area. thats why i as a proponent of capitalism, i want to find ways to INCREASE the economic activity in the area, which brings me to my next point.

    "you have accused Rose of "cheerleading for PalCo workers to lose their jobs" & of "trying to dehumanize" someone."

    true on both accounts. rose is a cheering for maxxam to reduce the amount of timberlands being harvested so that maxxam can sell 160 parcels of unharvestable land. EVERY time that the issue comes up, rose says "palco is a private company and can do whatever they want". im sorry, but humboldt county has always been pro labor. when i hear a local cheering for a company from out of the area to screw the workers in Humboldt County i get offended. sorry, thats just who i am, i value workers and families being able to have jobs. jobs that pay a living wage.
    as for rose dehumanizing people, she responded to a poster by accussing them of being me. she didnt even try to respond to the actual point made, therefore that person who made that post was dehumanized. rudeness is maybe a better term.

    "You've even professed to know what Jesus would think or do about current events & claimed to know what he looked like!"
    yep. there is this book, its called the bible. even though it was written generations after jesus supposedly lived, and even though there is no evidence such a figure ever existed, the bible is supposed to tell us what jesus would think and for what he looked like, i dont even believed he existed, so i dont think that he looked like anything...

    "I've suspected a time or two that you've even responded to yourself under yet another "anonymous" moniker. Have you?"

    nope. the early on, when i first started reading these blogs,i made a response to a poster named "me". ive been "theotherme" ever since.

    and yeah, calling people fascists always turns people off, i gotta remeber that one...

    i stand by the reigious freak comment as well as the one about so many people being whacked out on prescription drugs. i thought the drug comment was ironic since we are discussing pot.

  52. Theo turns jumping to conclusions into an Olympic event.

    So much to respond to - we'll just leave it at one - I don't advocate for Palco workers losing their jobs. I advocate for people who want to 'save the trees' to buy the land and thus control their fate. I do not support paid operatives like Mark Lovelace trying to run a company he does not own. It's very simple really.

    As for Palco selling portions of their holdings to stabilize the company - that is no different than any of the other TPZ landholders who testified that in lean times they do exactly that, in order to continue to preserve their lands and grow the trees.

    Theotherme seems perfectly willing to break the law at every turn when it comes to pot (doesn't even have any sympathy for Chris) - a common hypocritical stance held by most of the Palco haters, who have come to use nuances of 'the law' and even unique interpretations of "the law" to force their vision on others, and to acquire power.

  53. huh? palco haters? that makes no lol calling for palco employees to keep their jobs, you are calling for corporate raiders to screw the workers!!!!!!

    im willing to break the law? if so, i would have been growing pot when it was over $5000 a pound and i owned land. sorry, i work a 40 hour a week job(im here right now!!) and have made enough money off of the real estate boom that i dont need to grow pot.......nice try though

  54. robin shelley1/02/2008 4:23 PM

    Then maybe you'll also find it ironic that I've worked in pharmacy for the last 15 years.

  55. robin shelley1/03/2008 7:52 PM

    Glad you did well in the real estate boom, Tom. Were any of your sales effected by the underground marijuana economy? I've already told my real estate stories here.

  56. robin,
    how do you mean "effected by the underground marijuana industry"?..... throughout the years ive gotten run-down/trashed properties at low prices, remodeled/improved them and sold them for higher afraid there isnt anything too dramatic about it.....

  57. robin,
    to set things straight here, my bank account includes very few 0's. im not sitting on a mountain of savings.........i have taken every cent that i have ever made from real estate and put it right back into bigger and better real estate....i currently own a few properties that are almost ready to be flipped, but im worried that they will sit on the market all year if i put them on the market soon. plus, my family really likes our house. they arent thrilled at the thought of another project house...they'll come around;)

  58. That's cool, Tom. Don't worry, the housing market will go back up. Supply and demand and the sheer cost of materials and land will be the driving force.

  59. robin shelley1/03/2008 9:06 PM

    Actually, I said "underground marijuana economy" not "industry" but that's okay.
    When we put our house in Laytonville up for sale there was only one other recently sold house in the area that was comparable to ours & it showed as being sold for less than the actual price because the sellers took some "under the table/taxfree" money (about $50k, I was told). You're an investor so you understand how that devalued my house. I just wondered if you've run into anything like that?

  60. rose,
    i agree. real estate will continue to be a strong investmet.

    something is only worth what someone else will pay for it. that said, if you knew that your neighbor was able to get x amount of dollars for her house, why would you expect any less? i would have insisted on getting the most money that i could possibly have gotten. were perspective buyers having trouble aquiring financing because of the lower priced comparable? i could see that being one possible problem. another problem could have been that the market had changed for the worse since your neighbor sold out.

    and no, i have never had an experience like that.

  61. robin shelley1/03/2008 10:09 PM

    We actually weren't hurt by it but did lose at least two potential buyers who tried to use the comp house as a bargaining chip, one denied financing because of it, & I was worried. We also had some very "creative" offers from people who wanted us to hide money. It was an eye-opener for me. Very brazen, I thought, considering these people didn't know us. We lucked out because we sold just as the market was turning & bought here after the slump but it did take a long time to sell our house. We're happy with our deals. I've spent so much time dealing with real estate the last couple of years that I am now considering getting a license.
    Given your skills, it's smart to buy & flip. My parents did very well for themselves doing that same thing & you will, too. Real estate will always be a good investment (if you buy smart) because, unlike everything else we invest in, no more is being made. The market is cyclical & will come back, as you know. People get in trouble when they lose patience. Good for you, Tom!

  62. You can tell when the market is over its peak - especially this last go'round - when you see all the FSBOs. It reaches a certain high point and people don't want to share any of the gains with a realtor. Then it dips back a bit, plateaus for a while (5-7 years), so it may be a wait.

    Everybody talks about all the pot money up here influencing the housing market, and I suppose it does, though it seems most grow houses are rentals, the growers don't want to risk their own property.

    Seems to me what drives the prices up here are all the people who sell in higher priced southern markets, who have money to spare in a market like this. They use the extra money for remodeling and upgrades.

  63. rose,
    i agree. the main influx to the area is from retirees from higher priced southern markets. although the rate of influx may be decreased until the market picks up again in socal.

    in my opinion, the thing that really drove up prices was the easy availiability of money(credit).....with the introduction of "subprime" loans, millions and millions of people who couldnt qualify to buy a home a few years ago were now qualifying. millions of new buyers flood the market.

    hopefully the fed will reduce the interest rate by more than .25% next time...

    and hopefully the banks loosen up and realize that real estate is still a good investment.

  64. Rose Rose

    The marijuana industry has had a huge effect on the Humboldt real estate market. That myth about retirees from the bay area is pretty much just a myth. Altough I have met one person that retired from the bay area and moved to Humboldt BUT, that was to be close to her only daughter (who went to Humboldt State and stayed on).

    Many MANY of the local upper level dope growers put their profits in real property. In Humboldt county and elsewhere (out of state). Shelter Cove is bought up by dope growers. Alderoint, Island Mountain, Etttersburg, and so on. A couple of the big boys (mega growers) are buying rental type property in the Eureka area and becoming semi legit. They have the money to buy a crappy house, pay for a re-model, then rent it out and Presto Chango the dope grower is a "landloard". They use a property manager and never even have to do the little repair jobs. And as a "landlord" they can claim "legit" income for further loan applications, and get income tax write offs. And I doublt if they would knowingly rent a place to be used as a grow house. They are plenty of "marginal" real estate agents in Humboldt County, especially in SoHum and Fortuna.

    Lets face it. After 35 years of the marijuana culture and economy in Humboldt County just about every facit of the community and government is corrupted, or at a minimum financially influenced.

  65. Ok - you're talking more about Southern Humboldt, and I have no doubt that you know what you are talking about, but up here, I do know alot of people who sold their house in So Cal and moved here because it is quiet, beautiful and they marvel at the a5 minute commute. The make good neighbors, and keep alot of contractors and carpenters employed with full scale and often high end remodels.


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