Sunday, November 11, 2007

Remembrance

Source

"...America's soldiers are unique. They've never gone forth to war in a bad cause. Even when the cause was geopolitically mistaken, it was morally sound; the enemy could not claim the moral high ground. Nor have American men at arms ever been defeated on the field of battle. It suggests that the old cynicism "might makes right" has things exactly backwards.

But the uniqueness doesn't stop there. Alone among all the nations of the world, only the United States has sent its sons to war entirely for the benefit of others. Hundreds of thousands of Americans gave their lives in Europe, in the Pacific, in Southeast Asia, and in the Middle East to liberate oppressed peoples from tyranny and despair. They're still doing so today. No doubt they'll do so tomorrow. And all America has ever asked in recompense, in Colin Powell's memorable words, is ground enough to bury those who don't return....

We call them heroes, and the word is apt. But it doesn't cover the whole of the American martial experience. Many a hero has fought only in defense of that which is dear to him personally. The American soldier, more often than not, has gone to war in defense of that which is dear to others he never knew...."
Read the rest at Eternity Road

Amen.

h/t: ΛΕΟΝΙΔΑΣ

53 comments:

Anonymous said...

I hope all veterans had a pleasant day yesterday. And I hope all those that get today off from school, or work, actually take a couple of minutes to think of the reason behind the holiday.

Howlsatmoon said...

Good comment "anon". Taking just a bit of time from your "free" day seems quite appropriate.

They, We, I....appreciate that.
Wollf

Rose said...

Thank YOU and yours, Wolff.

mresquan said...

Veterans Day: A Day for Peace or for War?
By Ann Wright
t r u t h o u t | Perspective

Tuesday 13 November 2007

Could you ever imagine that Veterans Day was originally enacted as a day for world peace? Not by the way veterans who stand for peace are treated in Veterans Day ceremonies! Yet, according to the Veterans Affairs web site, Veterans Day, formerly known as Armistice Day, was originally a US legal holiday to honor the end of World War I and to honor the need for world peace.

When it passed a concurrent resolution on June 4, 1926, to honor the end of World War I, the US Congress stated: Whereas it is fitting that the recurring anniversary of this date should be commemorated with thanksgiving and prayer and exercises designed to perpetuate peace through good will and mutual understanding between nations. In 1938, the US Congress codified its earlier resolution by legislation naming November 11 as Armistice Day and dedicating the day "to the cause of world peace." In 1954, after World War II and the Korean Conflict, Congress - at the urging of the veterans service organizations - amended the Act of 1938 by striking out the word "Armistice" and inserting the word "Veterans." With the approval of this legislation on June 1, 1954, November 11 became a day to honor American veterans of all wars and a national holiday still dedicated to "the cause of world peace."

Yet, now we have many Veterans Day organizers who want to silence "peace" on Veterans Day. This past weekend we "celebrated" Veterans Day, a day for all veterans and a day for "world peace", or so I thought, until I went to Long Beach, California. Like so many aspects of our military, events surrounding Veterans Day have been privatized. The City of Long Beach has given Veterans Day to a private group, a group that decides which veterans can participate in a Veterans Day parade.

The private organizers in Long Beach said veterans groups that are against the war and for peace were not allowed to march in the parade, as they did not have the proper "spirit." Yet, the legislation enacting Veterans Day states that "the cause of world peace" is the goal of Veterans Day. Private citizens who have never served in the military are authorized by the City of Long Beach to decide what Veterans Day stands for and which veterans are the "real" veterans - the veterans who meet their agenda.

In another strange anomaly about Veterans Day, in Santa Barbara, California, members of the Veterans for Peace chapter have had to carry their discharge papers in order to march in the city's Veterans Day parade. The same requirement was not made for Veterans of Foreign Wars or American Legion or any other veterans group participating in the parade. This year the Boston police arrested eighteen members of Veterans for Peace when they refused to move from the front of the podium at City Hall Plaza when parade officials wouldn't allow them to carry signs opposing the war in Iraq while marching in Boston's Veterans Day parade. Some of the protesters wore gags over their mouths, which they said symbolized the fact that they were permitted to march in the parade but not exercise their right to free speech. According to the Boston Globe, Nate Goldschlag, a veteran standing in front of the podium, said: "Our free speech and civil rights are being abridged here. We should be allowed to express our opposition to this war."

In Atlanta, the Veterans for Peace Chapter and the American Veterans for Equal Rights Georgia (AVER), a gay and lesbian veterans group, had their applications to participate in the Parade initially denied with this comment from the parade organizers: "Application denied. Failure to follow guidelines in previous year." Last year the VFP Atlanta chapter had a truck with a banner that said, "BRING THEM HOME ... NOW!" The truck also had a banner with a picture of First Lt. Ehren Watada, the first commissioned officer to refuse to deploy to Iraq because he believed the invasion of Iraq was illegal. After first denying their applications, the association in charge of the Atlanta Veterans Day parade later said the groups could march but could not display any messages of peace, in the case of VFP, or show any "public displays of affection," in the case of AVER. "This is not a political parade. We don't allow anyone out there to promote ideas. There is no agenda allowed," Melvin Myers, president of the Parade Association, told Atlanta Progressive News.

In the Denver parade this year, the local Veterans for Peace chapter that had walked in the parade last year was told it was not invited back because its members were against the war. The day before the parade, a representative of the Denver United Veterans Council, the group organizing the city of Denver Veterans Day parade said there had been a misunderstanding and issued a late invitation to the VFP chapter. Frank Bessinger, a member of the Veterans for Peace group, said, "We didn't want to have to fight to get into the parade, we didn't want to have to protest. We're a veterans group and we just wanted to be in the Veterans Day Parade."

We veterans know that veterans have always had a variety of opinions on policies of every administration. During the Vietnam War, many, if not most, of those who served in Vietnam disagreed with the United States invasion and occupation of Vietnam. Today, many who have served in Iraq disagree with the invasion and occupation of Iraq, but despite their disagreement they served. Over 70 percent of the American people disagree with the war in Iraq, so why should veterans who also disagree with the war not be allowed to march in a Veterans Day parade?

City leaders should not give private organizations the right to deny veterans who believe in peace a place in a parade on a national veterans holiday created for peace!

Next year, we should put pressure on our city councils early to ensure the right of all veterans organizations to march in Veterans Day parades on a day dedicated to peace.

Ann Wright served 29 years in the US military (13 years on active duty and 16 years in the US Army Reserves. She also was a US diplomat for 16 years and served in Nicaragua, Grenada, Somalia, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Sierra Leone, Micronesia and Mongolia. She helped reopen the US Embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan, in December, 2001. She resigned from the US diplomatic corps in March 2003 in opposition to the war in Iraq. She is the co-author of "Dissent: Voices of Conscience" that will be available in January 2008.

Rose said...

I don't know a single person who doesn't want PEACE. Not one.

BUT - there's more than one way to peace. And appeasement isn't it.

Anonymous said...

Bravo Rose...BRAVISIMO...

Mark Konkler, Copy & Paste KING of the Humboldt Blogosphere.

Try having an original thought once in awhile, Konkler.

Howlsatmoon said...

Sr Esquan, a lovely and quite fair sentiment, if only cut and pasted.

Let's see, doing a little "research", I find:

World Peace Day...17 NOV
International Day of Peace..21 SEP
Global Orgasm,(for peace)...22 DEC
World Peace Week..5-11 NOV

There's a small but vocal group that wants 9/11 to be Universal Peace day.

Armistice Day celebrated the end of "The War to end all Wars". It didn't quite work out that way, did it? Pols carved up Germany to the point where it almost guaranteed another conflict.

Human beings, as much as I'm sure You and I would wish differently, are an aggressive, greedy bunch.

There are quite a few with good hearts who "wish" that we could live in global harmony.

It's just not that way, Sr. Esquan. I'm so sorry that it's not. But the world is full of evil, heartless, murderous souls who would kill you for any political or material gain that they saw.

Veterans Day is for the Men and Women of our country who instead of "wishing", take up arms at risk of their own lives to keep those animals from your door.

It's for Them, Sr.Esquan. Not their political agenda, be they Dove OR Hawk.

In MY heart, there is no room for ANY signs or banners other than Unit Idents, State and United States Flags.

This is for People, not causes, sir.

And if by some chance you belong to the 9/11 group that believes that 11 SEP should stand for Peace.....There's another date that you all can use for a parade:

1 April....All Fools Day.
Wollf

Rose said...

Veterans Day is for the Men and Women of our country who instead of "wishing", take up arms at risk of their own lives to keep those animals from your door.

Many risked and many lost. We owe them the honor of remembrance.

We are so fortunate, Mark. We live in the best place in the best time in the history of the world. We want for nothing. But in our plenty, we have forgotten where our food comes from, and what it means to protect the pack.

We have lost the sense of unity, and have taken to hating each other more than the enemies who would kill us.

Luckily - and I truly think the baby-boomers hope and trust that they do, and keep them safe - luckily, there are those who do not forget, and who do watch out for you, against all odds these days, from EPD to the military.

I for one am thankful.

Anonymous said...

Bonehead and Jerk are just toooo nice for Mresquan / Mark !!

Howlsatmoon said...

A rather harsh judgement, but I can understand where you're coming from.

The interesting thing to me is that the very People that Sr. Esquan denigrates are the People that guarantee his right to do so.

By the way, I would willingly do so again. Thank you "anon".

Say hey to the rest of the family.
Wollf

Anonymous said...

The Constitution guarantees my rights. The American military guarantees access to the worlds resources. To insure oil continues to flow from around the world to America, young military men and women will pay the premium with there lives. The fall in production/increase in demand will not bring peace, but it will bring poverty if a viable alternative to oil is not developed. Appeasement in the war on terror? Invest your money in weapons and security. The American military budget is larger than the rest of the world's total expenditure.

Rose said...

And our education budget is significantly more than our military budget, is it now?

People like to say we shouldn't go to war for oil, yet they all drive cars, and never seem to stop and think what would happen if they woke up tomorrow and the supply was cut off. Remember the gas lines? Imagine the disruption a real severance would bring. It's so easy to take the surface argument and never look deeper, or think deeper. Rhetoric is so much more fun.

That said, those same people will say we are stealing Iraqi Oil - but isn't it true that we have taken no oil from Iraq. What we are doing, by all accounts is helping them set up and rebuild a society, based on government by the people, and not by the dictator.

Presumably, some day we will buy oil from them, and the money will be distributed nationwide, similar to what is done in Alaska, and Indian Gaming casinos... a huge boon for the people there. Nothing nefarious there.

Is it tough? Damn straight - You can imagine a country where anyone with any gumption was killed, what you have left - genetically - is a group of people who are inclined NOT to stand up for themselves. It takes alot to help people stand up for themselves - pretty tough to get people even in THIS country to do it.

Anonymous said...

What the hell are you talking about, Rose? If you are going to throw a tantrum, get your facts straight. My comment was neutral, I gave no opinion of whether fighting for oil was wrong or right. There will be wars fought as oil reserves and production dwindle. Worldwide demand is going up rapidly. Production has peaked and beginning to fall. It will be a different world 25 years from now. You can be a champion for war if chest thumping makes you feel better, but the price of oil is three times what it was 7 years ago. As oil prices go up the value of the dollar goes down. As production falls further behind demand, the price of oil will continue to rise. It ain't my fault Rose. Iraqi oil is only a stopgap solution at best. Yes, I have imagined what it will be like when the end of oil comes. Are you prepared? I'm not.

Rose said...

You said "The American military guarantees access to the worlds resources"

I disagree. Trade guarantees access to the world's resources. Money does, too. We pay. We do not take at gunpoint.

Not only that, we give lots and lots and lots of money to other countries.

Anonymous said...

Looked at the trade deficit lately.

"We pay. We do not take at gunpoint....People like to say we shouldn't go to war for oil, yet they all drive cars, and never seem to stop and think what would happen if they woke up tomorrow and the supply was cut off."

Irony there.

"You can imagine a country where anyone with any gumption was killed, what you have left - genetically - is a group of people who are NOT inclined to stand up for themselves."

Are you talking about Iraq?

"Not only that, we give lots and lots and lots of money to other countries."

And loan them a lot more.

Howlsatmoon said...

Ummmm....

Yeah, what He said!!

I think.....huh?
G'nite
Wollf

Anonymous said...

"I don't know a single person who doesn't want PEACE. Not one."

"BUT - there is more than one way to peace. And appeasement isn't it."

One way would be to get the fuck out Iraq. We have killed over a million of those people. About seven hundred thousand were women and children. It's not that they won't stand up and fight - they have never stopped fighting against our superior war machine, the occupation of their country, the rewriting of their constitution and the privatization of their oil fields. It has nothing to do with genetics, Rose. There is no master race. But there are people who will frame that argument and feel justified in their support of the wholesale, indiscriminate slaughter being waged by the U.S. Government on the Iraqi people. Cut and run and appeasement? That will never happen. Colonization of middle eastern oil fields by an evil, corporately controlled empire with the largest concentration of the most advanced weapons the world has ever known - and as usual, soldiers are expendable. Makes you tingle all over, eh?

Anonymous said...

"We have killed over a million of those people"

ummmm Not even close.

Nice try though, keep spewing out lies and presenting them as facts.

Howlsatmoon said...

Anon 1:12, hmmm. Please go ahead and check out a Decidedly anti war site, called "Iraq Body Count" over HERE.

And as a polite disagreement, "We" haven't killed most of those poor Souls. The United States and its' military might is not ina war against Iraq.

We are in a war against Terror. And it is those Terrorists who are bombing innocents, not our Troops.

As a less polite disagreement, where in the Hell do you get the nerve to accuse the "Us" of "indiscriminate slaughter"?

Please read more than one side of an issue, then form your own opinion and share with us.

Just throwing out flammable, undocumented propoganda renders your opinions as unimportant and of no value to a dialogue.

Regards,
Wollf

mresquan said...

Remember that Iraqi Body Count even acknowledges that the military has quit doing body counts after particular missions,so their figures may be underestimated greatly.The more correct number is in the vicinity of 560,000.

Anonymous said...

ouch, that's going to leave a mark.

Anonymous said...

Bush declared that we won the war two weeks into the invasion. When the insurgency started fighting back, he said we hadn't won the peace. We weren't fighting war on terror when we invaded Iraq, but since then, we have fought a war by conventional methods against fighters using guerrilla tactics. Whether you believe Iraqi dead number a half million or one million or thirty thousand, we have killed far more Iraqi people than foreign terrorists. We have killed more Iraqi children than foreign terrorists. We have dislocated over three million Iraqi people from their homes and impoverished the rest.

Rose said...

And how many Iraqi men, women and childres did Saddam, their fearless leader kill? How many men women and children were gassed to death by the leader of Iraq?

How many wars and armed conflicts are there in the worls today - and with one exception, who is involved?

As a nation we were in the process of disarmament when we were attacked. We were closing military bases. We welcomed peace. And we will again.

Your minds are poisoned by Bush hatred, and it turns you against your own to our peril.

I NEVER hear one of you guys condemn the beheading of Nicholas Berg, the beheading of Iraqi school girls, the slaughter of women in Afghanistan's soccer stadiums - and worse.

Blinded you are by hate. And you wonder why war persists? Your hatred is the basis of all conflict.

Rose said...

Who would have thought a simple "Thank You." - A simple acknowledgement to the men and women who gave their time and their lives would degenerate into this filth.

But in that spirit - I give you U.S. Torture and Atrocities. Pic added to the post.

mresquan said...

I can picture a caption reading "We just killed your mommy and daddy,but everything will be okay,don't worry,you are free now."

Anonymous said...

How many men, women and children did Saddam kill? Thats your argument? How many children did sanctions kill, Rose. How many torture prisons did we shut down? None, in fact we expanded the number. Iraq didn't attack us Rose - we attacked Iraq.

I haven't turned against my own, but, I do not support my government and the atrocities it is committing and it's war on the truth. Nice way to frame your propaganda based argument, Rose - but, you get no points.

I condemn the beheading of Nicholas Berg and the secret CIA prisons where people are tortured and sometimes disappeared.

Money and power are the basis of war, but thanks for the credit.

Anonymous said...

And I want the troops home safe and sound.

mresquan said...

And by the way I do have 2 family members serving in Iraq,so yes,it hits close to home.And my cousin is now in Kansas City awaiting to be deployed for his third tour.
I certainly do sympathize with the young men and women who haven't had the opportunity to realize that better options existed than fighting in these wars.The atrocities which have been occurring aren't their fault,they unfortunately were sent out to do a minor sec's dirty work because of their misguided ideals.
You'd never see any neocon put into the position of picking up and holding a baby after ambushing a neighborhood,or responding to an attack by a suicide bomber in a land where our presence has ignited a civil war.
No,these are the people who hate and despise our troops.The same ones who ensure that programs like Upward Bound are eliminated for troops who could return home and continue to receive an education.

Anonymous said...

The American soldier has created more freedom,democracy and piece in the world that anyone,any government program,any NGO program,anything. PERIOD! They should be the Nobel Peace Prize Winners. It's chicken shits like mresquan that are under cutting them around the world and at home. Shame on you. GWB has not been able to get the job on global terrorism done in part due his failure as commander and chief in Iraq and in part because of fools like mresquan who refuse to realize free peoples need to do what's necessary to defend freedom. Hope his family members are save and well and understand that we love and admire them for protecting us all even the fools.

Anonymous said...

The American soldier carries out the policies of the American government. American foreign policy has nothing to do with spreading peace and democracy. On the contrary, the American government has used the CIA to bring an end to democratically elected governments and in their place, propped up strong arm dictatorships, friendly to American business. We have a long history in Central and South America replacing popularly elected heads of state who were committed to bettering the lives of their poor and middle class people. American foreign policy is advised by corporate heads and lending institutions that do business in those countries. These corporate entities work hand in hand to write free, not fair trade policies that enslave foreign workers to long hours and low pay under inhumane conditions, often without access to medical services or education. Many jobs once done by American workers whose wages were high enough to create a middle class that was the envy of the world. Thanks to the parting out of American manufacturing and tech jobs, we are experiencing a shrinking middle class while the number of people living below the poverty line is growing. The next time you go shopping, look at the packaging, more than likely it says 'made in China', India or some place that you only have the foggiest notion about. Jobs to large for the CIA to handle are taken over by the American military and when the bombs are dropped and the missiles fly, innocent people die and chaos ensues. After a puppet government is propped up and the dust settles and the smoke clears and the propaganda has worked it's magic, an uneasy peace is reached. And to the corporations go the spoils.

Thanks to legal person status of corporations and their deregulation, they have become the real global power. They have bought your government and sent your job and the economy packing. High school graduates have fewer choices and the military option often takes them away. While those at home are treated to the deregulated corporations' importations of toxic food and lead based paint on childrens' Christmas toys.

mresquan said...

7:11pm,corporate personhood is the worst thing that has ever happened to this country.

Rose said...

You're joking, right?

I'm thinking we should have the water tested.

Anonymous said...

Corporate personhood gives them unlimited resources. Try going against one in a courtroom. An individual can't afford it. Your guarantee of a fair hearing is thwarted by delay tactics and dirty tricks that will leave you bankrupt long before your case is over. Just another way that corporations have tapped into your financial freedom and constitutionally guaranteed rights.

Rose said...

If you were right, "Baykeeper" would have to close their moneygrubbing doors. That's how they rob the bank, they just have to THREATEN a lawsuit, and the corporations, not wanting a protracted legal battle, give them hundreds of thousands of dollars in go-away money - that's what they were set up here for - spawn of another predatory litigious group. It's a new age con, a shell game with new "orgs" popping up all over.

"Corporate personhood" is just more of that easy rhetoric for the indolent masses.

Anonymous said...

Big difference between an individual and an organization. What you call a predatory litigious group is more accurately described as individuals joining together to gain equal footing with corporations in the courtroom.

" "Corporate personhood" is just more of that easy rhetoric for the indolent masses."

Indolent masses who bring frivolous lawsuits? You are a strange life form, Rose; you breath in truth and exhale propaganda.

Rose said...

BS. "Baykeeper" uses "members" for cover the same way the "Alliance for Ethical Business" did. It must be a model, kind of like a franchise, 'cause they are using the same playbook from Salzman's Tribal Heart Beat.

I've already posted about the origins of "Baykeeper" - their own actions prove their status as a Predatory Litigious Group" whose sole raison d'etre is suing the deepest pockeets they can find, Red Emmerson and Rob Arkley.

Anonymous said...

"Predatory Litigious Group."

The biggest crimes are white collar crimes that often hurt the most people. The only way you can stop them is by suing their deep pockets, and exposing them in court. And newspapers. Blogs. Bull horns.

Anonymous said...

oh, so the ends justify the means, that's what you're saying, eh 11:35?

Since these predatory orgs are pursuing your agenda, its ok...

Riiiggggght...got it.

Anonymous said...

7:11 a young man from Eureka just died in Iraq. He died to give you the right to be a fool. I honor this young man unconditionally.

Anonymous said...

The way to honor this young soldier is to understand that soldiers do not die to protect our rights. No one in Iraq can negate our Constitutionally guaranteed rights. That vomit pill of propaganda you have swallowed, "We fight them over there so that we don't have to fight them over here", was designed for people who can't think for themselves. There is no country powerful enough to invade and occupy the U.S.A.. There is a reason this poor soldier died. His Country sent him to fight and die because he was expendable in the quest for control of Middle Eastern oil fields. Vast wealth is being created and a portion of it has been kicked back into our political system. If soldiers want protect my rights then they need to question why their Commander in Chief said, "The Constitution is just a goddamn piece of paper.

Rose said...

The best way to honor that young man - and others like him - is to realize that some things are worth dying for. Your right to post here, for example. Your right to speak your mind about your opinions, even to criticize your President, without fear. Your right to worship, or not, as you see fit, not to be forced to bow to mecca at noon, that you can choose your own profession, your own life mate - and so many other things, including, yes, you can drive your car, using that oil you so disdain. In the meantime, he gave his life to bring that freedom to another person in another country - hopefully one who will treasure it more than you, people who understand the heartbreaking fact that it is not as simple to have and maintain as you say

The worst thing you can do is say it was in vain.

But that's just my opinion. Many presidents, including Clinton have sent men off to war, and many will in the future. The difference is that when our guys were killed in the USS Cole, Clinton took rather the same view as you, and did nothing to avenge or protect those guys. That weakness led us here. And again, that's just my opinion, which I am sure will send you over the deep end. Sorry.

Howlsatmoon said...

I think this Warrior would take umbrage with you referring to him as a "poor soldier". He took in essence, as an Elisted man, the same Oath that I did:

"I, Wollf, having been appointed an officer in the Marine Corps of the United States, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God."

He joined for reasons that you could never understand. He didn't go to war to die. That unfortunately happens far to often to young Patriots.

You have sullied his name and the names of Legions that came befor him. This post was written to Honor the Men and Women of uniform who have take that Oath.

Men and Women who voluntarily take up arms to protect the Constitution of the United States.

They don't have the luxury of questioning what they're doing. but the believe. And the understand the meaning of Honor and Duty.

You fermenting bucket of goose sh-t. Why don't you reach way down in your pants pocket, sift through f-king lint and find possibly an ounce of f-king Honor yourself.

Have the f-king decency to espouse your Constitutional right to political speech in a venue where you don't sh-t on the graves of f-king Heroes.

You are the "vomit pill". This Soldier and hundreds of thousands like and before him gave you the f-king "right" to f-king sling your sh-t mouth around.

Be thankful boy. Be thankful.
Wollf

Anonymous said...

Yeah. What he said.

Rose said...

Remember Love Story? The line, "love means never having to say you are sorry." Doesn't mean you don't apologize. It means not doing the thing you have to apologize for in the first place.

That line ""The Constitution is just a goddamn piece of paper." - think about it, 6:52. It is accurate. It is the concept that lives in the hearts and minds of the people - or it doesn't.

Without those who do understand and appreciate it, who are indeed willing to die for it, we lose it all, and it is nothing more than a piece of paper. Doesn't take a foreign country invading, just people who hate their own nation and fail to understand what it takes to defend it - against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Not doing too good a job on the latter are we?

Anonymous said...

What part of the oath, "I......do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic..."? Was your ADD mind wandering when you took that oath, Wollf?

You are partly right, Rose. It doesn't take a foreign country invading, it takes our Democratically elected representatives selling out to the money and power of corporations which fit, neither definition 'foreign and domestic' and at the same time, both.

Howlsatmoon said...

Anon....A reasonable and witty post.

Good to see you investigated. By the way, I took my Oath "before" a particular UH-1 decided to become less than air worthy.

Thank you for being honorable this time.
Regards,
Wollf

Rose said...

I do think there is something in the water up here, Wollf.

And, 10:53, this hysterical fear of corporations is utterly incomprehensible. Why not turn your attention to the people who stone teenage girls to death for the crime of having a boyfriend, behead your fellow countrymen to threaten you, and hijack planes to convert them into bombs that kill your relatives. There's something that really does threaten world peace.

Anonymous said...

"Why not turn your attention to the people who stone teenage girls to death for the crime of having a boyfriend, behead your fellow countrymen to threaten you, and hijack planes to convert them into bombs that kill your relatives."

You must be talking about Saudi Arabia and Egypt, where those things are done. Maybe it's because one has oil and they both have torture prisons. Our Vice President is especially fond of one Middle Eastern dictator that playfully boils his political opposition in oil. Your previous post blaming Clinton for not reacting to the USS Cole incident is misleading. Clinton bombed Iraq almost daily and imposed harsh sanctions that killed five thousand children a month and another five thousand old people every month while he was in office. Even Jimmy Carter was not above selling weapons to ruthless heads of state. I do not hate my Country, but I do understand why others do.

Howlsatmoon said...

Clinton was responsible for killing 280,000 children? And on top of that 280,000 more adult Iraqis?

No wonder I didn't vote for him the second time!!

But a couple facts to feed the mathematical, shall we?

Population: 19,524,700 in 1992, so Clinton killed 3.5% of the Iraqi population? Holy Crap, that guy was Evil! Seriously Evil.

Onward:
Human Rights Watch reports that in one operation alone, the Anfal, Saddam killed 100,000 Kurdish Iraqis. Another 500,000 are estimated to have died in Saddam's needless war with Iran.

Coldly taken as a daily average for the 24 years of Saddam's reign, these numbers give us a horrifying picture of between 70 and 125 civilian deaths per day for every one of Saddam's 8,000-odd days in power.

And I "think" we all agree that Saddam was truly Evil.

One last bit of the mathematical:

The AP on 2NOV 2007 reports that: "On average, 56 Iraqis — civilians and security forces — have died each day so far in this very bloody year."

If we then do the arithmetic we can juxtapose Clinton and Saddam's 600-680,000 civilian deaths, Saddam's in a known 8,000 day spree, we see that Bush 2 can be held accountable for 163,072 civilian AND security deaths by the end of his term.

A difference of 476,928.

That is a difference of close to a HALF MILLION human lives SPARED an early death.

I'm just using the "facts" that we've been given, then I looked up rather liberal based articles to try and be fair here.

Horrid numbers to be sure. Man's inhumanity to Man. But it really begs the question, doesn't it?

Where's the evil to the People of Iraq?

Sorry 'bout the math...I get that way sometimes.
Wollf

Rose said...

I think I like this Wollf.

see I was going to respond with some lame point about Saddam using the Oil For Food money - money that was intended to allow his people to buy antibiotics for children - to build gilded palace bathrooms, and note that if people around the world really hate us so much, it's kinda funny that they all want to come here -

LOL

Anonymous said...

Oil for food? Lack of clean drinking water is what killed so many during the sanctions. Our military targeted Iraq's water/sewage treatment plants during the first Gulf war. Raw sewage then poured into the Tigris and Euphrates which are sourced for drinking water. Wollf, your math does not take into account how many millenia spent plutonium munitions will cause lethal mutations in the Iraqi populace, or how many generations unexploded cluster bombs will continue to blow arms and legs and lives away. The problem with counting the dead is that at this point one can only extrapolate. At least one estimate put the number at 650,000 as of a year ago.

Many people would like to come here because, in there own country, free trade has destroyed small family farms and driven up prices. While wages in factories that produce for the U.S. market drop, The lack of medicine and education guarantees that they will never escape an enforced destitution brought to them courtesy of unfair trade agreements with the U.S.. The U.S. will always have an open door policy for the best and brightest from other nations. But, with the dollar losing its value against the euro, it is losing it's appeal . And could loose it's place as the world's trade currency, with devastating effect on our economy. Europe, India, and Asia are becoming more attractive to the world's most gifted. And we are building a wall on the U.S./Mexico border. Money crosses borders freely, labor does not.

Rose said...

Yep. Blame America first.

Anonymous said...

Blame America first is a catchy little phrase, Rose, and a fitting epitaph for soldiers sent to die in illegal wars that displace millions from their homes by a president who has legalized torture and is now beating the drum for war with Iran. You have a kill 'em all and let god sort 'em out attitude. Blame America first for torture. Blame America first for breaking nuclear weapons treaties. Blame America first for not helping Russia secure its warehoused weapons of mass destruction. Blame America first for the terror industry that so many of our past and present elected leaders make fortunes from. Blame America first for a deregulated media that hides the truth. Blame America first for sending it's soldiers to fight without the proper armor. Yep. Blame America first.