◼ h/t: Holger
The Answer has been given. Mike has just saddled every generation to come with a massive bill. I hope he sleeps well.
ARE YOU VOTING FOR THIS??!!?? Buy a $15,000 Policy or Go to Jail; Failure to Comply, 5 Years in Prison...
Ask him, Hank!
“Criminal penalties
Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses. Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:
• Section 7203 – misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.
• Section 7201 – felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.” [page 3]
◼ PELOSI: Buy a $15,000 Policy or Go to Jail;
...Ranking Member of the House Ways and Means Committee Dave Camp (R-MI) released a letter from the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) confirming that the failure to comply with the individual mandate to buy health insurance contained in the Pelosi health care bill (H.R. 3962, as amended) could land people in jail. The JCT letter makes clear that Americans who do not maintain “acceptable health insurance coverage” and who choose not to pay the bill’s new individual mandate tax (generally 2.5% of income), are subject to numerous civil and criminal penalties, including criminal fines of up to $250,000 and imprisonment of up to five years.
In response to the JCT letter, Camp said: “This is the ultimate example of the Democrats’ command-and-control style of governing – buy what we tell you or go to jail. It is outrageous and it should be stopped immediately.”
◼ Liveblogging: The new Imperial Congress votes on Pelosicare; Update: Female Democrats turn House resolution process into circus; GOP responds; Obama rallies weakened Dems
E-Mail Mike Thompson
WASHINGTON, DC OFFICE
231 Cannon Office Building
Washington, DC 20515
Phone: (202) 225-3311 (I've just been told that he knows that is in there and is voting for it anyway, and that there has been some "miscommunication" - I guess that means that section isn't supposed to exist. Did he pull it out?)
Fax: (202) 225-4335
NAPA DISTRICT OFFICE
1040 Main Street, Suite 101
Napa, CA 94559
Phone: (707) 226-9898
Fax: (707) 251-9800
HUMBOLDT DISTRICT OFFICE
317 3rd Street, Suite 1
Eureka, CA 95501
Phone: (707) 269-9595
Fax: (707) 269-9598
MENDOCINO DISTRICT OFFICE
430 North Franklin Street
PO Box 2208
Fort Bragg, CA 95437
Phone: (707) 962-0933
Fax: (707) 962-0934
YOLO DISTRICT OFFICE
712 Main Street, Suite 1
Woodland, CA 95695
Phone: (530) 662-5272
Fax: (530) 662-5163
Rose, you're aware that it's the conservatives who are pushing to include mandatory (punitively enforced) insurance purchases onto the public? A good many conservative Dems have signed onto this as well.
ReplyDeleteBut don't for a second try and pin this on to the "liberals" or "socialists" this is the kind of asinine thing that American style compromise entails.
You are so spinning you must be a top. Pelosi is the worst human in Cali unless she is in DC then she's just average.
ReplyDeleteI want some of the stuff 11:56 AM is smoking.
ReplyDeleteThis bill does not resemble anything progressive or liberal. Progressives would like to expand Medicare to offer a plan for people to be able to buy into if insurance companies don't want them. Medicare Part E for everyone.
ReplyDeleteThis would leave the current system intact. With a level and equal reimbursement to all states. Currently Medicare reimburses doctors up to 3 times more in some states verses others.
What I see being debated may save the country some money, but it will be a giveaway to insurance companies and a large burden on the working class.
"This bill does not resemble anything progressive or liberal."
ReplyDeleteIn the sense that it is not socialized medicine (single payer) it is not what the libera/progressives prefer. They have however, learned one of Marx's and Gramsci's important tenets well: "Undermine the bourgeois order and replace it with a collectivist social hegemony."
These people have seized the education and mass media sectors of the West and they never sleep.
Why don't you watch your goddamned mouth. You are talking about the Speaker of the House of Representatives of the United States of America, third in line to the President of the United States. Show some respect or else remain an unpatriotic halfwit.
ReplyDeleteBut anon 12:02 is being patriotic. If you can't diss the gov't leaders you might as well be in Iran..
ReplyDelete(nothing against Pelosi btw..I've enjoyed socialized medicine for 15 years and it's great not to have to worry about being wiped out by medical bills. I once was a caretaker for a once very wealthy man who became paraplegic after an auto accident, lost his whole company in medical bills and care treatment, ended up on welfare system like me. Look at Europeans, NZ, other rational countries and see just how backwards and priorities bassackwards Americans mezmerized by the ads of corporate greedos all their lives can be..
anon 4:03
ReplyDeleteI'm very patriotic, to the extreme and I too have nothing good to say about the speaker of the house.
Third in line for the presidency doesn't make her a good person or a good American. She is a piece of dung only interested in power and maintaining power. Pelosi, and hubby, are wealthy beyond a normal peson's imagination. She will continue to live her privledged lifestyle.
She(Pelosi) is the word come to life," all animals are equal", "only some of us are more equal that others" She is a bag of foul,hot air,with a carbon foot print equaled only by her phony pal, Al Bore.
ReplyDeleteKinda reminds us of the nasty way FDR was treated by Republicans after Congress passed the first Social Security laws which even conservative Republican citizens now take for granted.
ReplyDeleteGOD BLESS THE LADY SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE. GOD BLESS THE LADY SPEAKER AND LONG MAY SHE LIVE. GOD BLESS THE LADY SPEAKER AND GRACE HER SO THAT SHE CAN SEE ALL SHE HAS ACCOMPLISHED. GOD BLESS YOU LADY SPEAKER.
ReplyDeleteRose,
ReplyDeleteOf course Mickey (the mouse) Thompson voted for "the intolerable act". It was never in doubt. Did he extract any quid pro from the Obamunists as did another Kalifornia congressvermin from Fresno? Of course not.
Mickey is in a safe "progressive" seat and will continue voting for the collectivization of the US. He likes his plush office perks and will continue to enjoy them as long as the progressive leeches such as Stephen are able to feed of the producers of society.
Pogo, do you also post as anonymous 'cause your silly slander of me sounds like one of my anonymous fans. You have any idea of the amount of volunteer time I've given to helping better this world? Don't you go trying to bash my work ethic because you've haven't a clue what I've done to assist others in need. Like anonymous' posts, you just hurl out shit and hope it sticks on somebody but in that process you end up with plastered all over yourself. Think next time before you attack me..
ReplyDeleteNope Stephen, sorry but I don't post as "anonymous". Apparently there are "others?" that object to people who use the gov't to seize what they have earned in order for you to enjoy "free" medical services. Don't feel picked on. The leeches are currently running the show.
ReplyDeleteBye for now. Gotta get back to work. The Franchise Tax Board needs more cash.
Just another straw man offered by those who truly have no argument that can withstand scrutiny. Please read this synopsis of the section you are so worked up over. In summary, the section says you have to pay your taxes. Exemptions and rationale can be found here:
ReplyDeletehttp://balkin.blogspot.com/2009/11/will-i-go-to-jail-if-i-dont-buy-health.html
Please read and then offer an argument, not fearmongering and demagoguery.
Stephen you need not worry about Pogo, Erik Vang Kirk or any other anonymous assaulter of you.
ReplyDeleteROMANS 12:19-20
Let the Lord have his glorious vengeance. Let their heads burn until their mandibles fall off and they will not be heard from again. If Pogo wishes to defile you, let him. It will only speed his miserable end.
Simple math: the more people paying into the health-care system, the less it costs each one. Also, why is a hospital paid a thousand times more per hour than an in-home healthcare worker? Why is a doctor paid a hundred times more per hour than an in-home health-care worker? Having been an in-home health-care worker I know for fact that without such services patients will die. If no one turns your bed sheets you can die from infections. In-home care shows up the evil in our present capitalist-run health-care system because the lowly worker who's services are absolutely vital for tens of thousands of disabled and older Americans is paid minimum wage while doctors drive their Mercedes and live in the rich homes. There are many many such discrepancies in income that will and have done in our economic system because the money just isn't there to support the extra zoo zoos demanded by health-care industry professionals and their managers.
ReplyDeleteStephen, people have an individual responsibility to take care of themselves and their family members.
ReplyDeleteThis is not mana from heaven, this will now be on the back of the people who already are taking care of themselves and their family members.
Someone has to pay for it. The money doesn't appear out of thin air, it doesn't flow from Obama's perfumed lips. It is taken essentially at gunpoint from productive citizens - who are already paying and already overburdened.
This disgusting bill has passed, saddling future generations with unimaginable debt.
IN fact, it is Obama's youngest supporters who will now be forced to pay for the irresponsibility of the narcissistic baby-boomers.
It will severely cripple this next generation's ability to be able to afford a house, a car, college educations for their children, it will severely impact their ability to provide for themselves and their families.
This is a shameful act.
And do not forget - our despicable Democrat Party representatives, who are no longer representatives of the People, were going to vote for this behemoth no matter what was in it, no matter that it does not address the elephants in the room - they were going to ram it through without discussion or evaluation, they were going to vote for it sight unseen, all pages unread.
This is a power move, they don't care about you at all.
It is shameful that one generation will burden the next like this, instead of providing for a healthy economy that could allow them to afford to live up to their own individual responsibilities.
Rose has short term memory deficits. The system was already broken when this bill was passed. Now, you're ok to criticize this bill, because frankly it is a turd. It doesn't make liberals happy, it doesnt make conservatives happy. It is a turd, but it's the best turd our political system could produce.
ReplyDeleteBut Rose, you're forgetting that the system as it is now, is completely broken. A for profit health system doesn't work.
We need single payer now.
Yes, Rose, you have to give up the idea that private enterprise can handle our society's health-care system. It's proven it can't and one only has to look at the Scandinavian systems to see health-care systems that do work and yes, they are paid for by higher taxes but everyone's covered, unlike backward America where conservatives have made sure health coverage is for the rich who can afford it while the average joe pays for it all.
ReplyDeleteIn the past, I've called for a Tax on the Super Rich who if they ever paid their fair share of taxes could cover the medical costs of every single US citizen.
That's a nice meme - to say it was broken. It wasn't.
ReplyDeletePeople hear that and they say "yeah." But the reality is it absolutely was and has been working.
Everyone knows there are issues to be addressed - tort reform being number 1 among them - and there are ways to address them.
Creating a behemoth government dictatorship is insane.
You don't know what it is going to do. You undoubtedly don't even know what is in it.
Mike Thompson most certainly doesn't know - and what's more DOES NOT CARE. He proved that in the very early days when he stated that he intended to vote for it. Pelosi was unsuccessful in pushing that early vote, so he never got to make it, but in the end, he did exactly as he was told, and as he intended to do regardless of the ramifications to YOU, the working, taxpaying individual.
The Democratic party is the party of BIG BROTHER GOVT. pure and simple.
You can't tax the rich enough to pay for this turd, as you call it.
Rose, now you're just ignoring fact. As a percentage of GDP spending, the USA spends 14-15 percent on healthcare. Thats TWICE as much as 'socialized' countries.
ReplyDeleteFact number 2, government already picks up the tab for the elderly with Medicare - the elderly are the MOST expensive portion of the population to cover and private insurers don't want that risk. Yet Medicare has no bargaining power over prices, it pays the market price which everyone knows is EXPENSIVE.
Fact number 3, the way we fund healthcare for workers in this country makes us uncompetitive. $2000 of every GM vehicle price goes to workers healthcare? No other country does it this way.
Stop with the romantic John Wayne arguments Rose. Start talking fact.
Ernie has a goo dpost up:
ReplyDeletehttp://ernielb.blogspot.com/2009/11/universal-refrigeration-care.html
Stephen: "...one only has to look at the Scandinavian systems to see health-care systems that do work and yes, they are paid for by higher taxes but everyone's covered..."
ReplyDeleteMy wife is a Swedish national and most of her family lives there. We can assure you that the scandinavian health system SUCKS. You seldom ever see the same doctor twice and that is if you can make it past the nurse-practitioner whose job it is to hand out aspirin tablets for almost all illnesses. Except for emergencies, waits to see an MD range from weeks to months and this includes serious terminal illnesses which in some instances have resulted in unnecessary deaths. To cut costs, colonoscopies are performed without benefit of anesthetic. The bureaucratic red tape to obtain a CT scan or MRI takes weeks before you are placed on the waiting list. Like most socialist systems, the health system is bankrupt and the co-payments which were formally nominal increase each year and are now quite substantial. Elderly pensioners have their pension payments reduced for every hospital stay.
Dental care is considerably more expensive than comparable procedures here which are covered by private insurance plans which pay 40%.
Sure, "everyone's covered" like sleeping in a igloo being covered by only a bedsheet.
Guess that explains why Skands are the world's healthiest peoples: Forbes.com has found that the region is home to some of the world's healthiest countries, including top-ranking Iceland, Sweden and Finland.
ReplyDeleteNice try, Oeon, at smearing the land of the beloved blonds..
You're wrong on this one, Stephen, and this I do know for a fact.
ReplyDelete..."and this I do know for a fact."
ReplyDeleteShove that fact into a blender along with some carrots and potatoes. Chop. Add 2 cups of water, hit pulse button until ingredients and water are mixed. Pour into sauce pan and heat at medium setting. Stir occasionally. Serve with toast for a meatless dinner. Enjoy the simple pleasures.
Now, go pay your auto insurance premium, its due. Failure to comply will land you in court and you will pay a fine. Second offenders will lose their freedom for a while and their drivers license.
Paying off a home mortgage? You must have insurance on your house, it is mandatory.
Stephen has it right.
Anon. 9:10.
ReplyDeleteYou don't need car insurance if you don't own or drive a car, the same with home insurance.
Stephen, peoples health depends on lifestyle choises, not insurance.
If you, like many Americans carry an extra 100 lb. around you get sick, one way or another. If you cannot move your fat butt more than two blocks without using your car you end up sick.
With government-run health care everyone gets mediocre to lousy care.
In Sweden you don't get new drugs if they are more expensive than the older ones.The bureaucrats say it would set a bad precedent and lead to unequal access to medicine.
Malmö, with its 280,000 residents, is Sweden's third-largest city. To see a physician, a patient must go to one of two local clinics before they can see a specialist. The clinics have security guards to keep patients from getting unruly as they must wait hours to see a doctor. The guards also prevent new patients from entering the clinic when the waiting room is considered full. Uppsala, a city with 200,000 people, has only one specialist in mammography. Sweden's National Cancer Foundation reports that in a few years most Swedish women will not have access to mammography.
In the budget-governed health care there is no room for curious, young physicians and other professionals to challenge established views. New knowledge is discouraged and typically considered a problem that brings increased costs and disturbances in today's slimmed-down health care.
The problems with American health care system are mostly the a result of too much government already. Over 50 percent of health care expenditures in America are made by government. This discourages competition and any incentive to hold down costs. After all, as Stephen says "it's free".
Having lived under both the Swedish and American systems the choice is a no brainer. The even partial government controlled system here wins hands down. Don't fall into that trap!
Using Stephen's twisted logic, socialized health care results in the folks on the Res being our healthiest citizens. I want a hit off that bong.
ReplyDeleteSo then why does out healthcare cost twice as much as Sweden's and rank 37th compared to Sweden's 23rd according to the World Health Organization??
ReplyDeleteCould you explain that? Could you explain that without saying Americans are fat asses? Could you say that without just dismissing the WHO entirely?
9:41 AM: "...why does out [sic] healthcare cost twice as much as Sweden's...?
ReplyDeleteMostly for the same reason a Mercedes costs more than a Yugo but also due to trial lawyers and insane malpractice awards which by the way Obamacare will not fix.
...37th compared to Sweden's 23rd according to the World Health Organization??
You need to cite the WHO ranking criteria and while you're at it ask the WHO to explain how many millions of African children have died from malaria as a result of the DDT ban.
"...without saying Americans are fat asses?"
Cruise on down to Winco and open your eyes.
Yep, you can't argue a fact without being petty and sidestepping. Waste of time.
ReplyDeleteForbes.com: World's healthiest countries: Iceland, Sweden and Finland.
ReplyDeleteFunny how some of you are trying to make a case for our over-paid and much poorer health care system.
What wonderful lives some of you live if you see no inequality/unnecessary death/inefficiency/theft/family bankruptcy in the current system.
ReplyDeleteSome of you must live over by Duh Nile River.
As in Denial, if you aren't that quick.
Stephen, quit posting as anon and get back to your bong. The biggest theft in the US is by the gangs in DC and Sacto. Pelosicare is so bad that even Dennis Kucinich wouldn't accept it as a good first step to socialized medicine. If you are going to pontificate on a subject confine it to something you know something about, such as Jew hatred.
ReplyDeleteTut, tut, Pogo. You're starting to sound like Eric Vang Kirk and his posse of internet goons hallucinating visions of Stephen Lewis wherever you go. I am not Stephen Lewis! But Stephen has ten times the brains and spirit than you. Yes, and try to make me out to be a hater of North American jewry. I most certainly am not. Maybe this is a reflection of your own nasty inner thoughts. And you are a nasty demonic creature Pogo. Better be careful, because I am walking around this town and I just might step on you and crush you.
ReplyDeleteAnon 1:58 PM: "I am not Stephen Lewis!
ReplyDelete"Yes, and try to make me out to be a hater of North American jewry. I most certainly am not."
We'll write the above quotes off to your having ingested too much bong water. Now be a nice fellow and go sleep it off. And no more threats to harmless possums!
Ever notice how 'possums look like big rats? Why didn't we get koala bears instead of big marsupial rats?
ReplyDeleteJust kidding. I like opossums just fine, well, most of them..
Stephen, are you ready to listen?
ReplyDeleteWHOs number should be taken with a grain of salt
The WHO ranking was published in 2000, and came up against a major problem: Good data weren’t available from many countries. So researchers used other measures, such as literacy rates and income inequality, to infer health data. The report’s editor in chief later called the findings " spurious"noting the lack of solid data.
Life expectancy is used to judge healthcare but is a product of many different factors - not only the quality of a nation’s medical care, but also issues such as nutrition, smoking rates and the like.
Is it healtier to die from a heart attack than lung cancer?
Important to notice is that life expectancy is based upon how infant mortality rate is measured which varies greatly from country to country. In the U.S. low birth-weight babies are still babies. In Canada, Germany and Austria, a premature baby weighing less than 500 grams is not considered a living child and is not counted in such statistics. They’re considered “unsalvageable” and therefore never alive.
Norway boasts one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world — until you factor in weight at birth, and then its rate is no better than in the U.S.
In other countries babies that survive less than 24 hours are also excluded and are classified as “stillborn.” In the U.S. any infant that shows any sign of life for any length of time is considered a live birth.
A child born in Hong Kong or Japan that lives less than a day is reported as a “miscarriage” and not counted. In Switzerland and other parts of Europe, a baby is not counted as a baby if it is less than 30 centimeters in length.
Americans suffer more obesity (about 10 times as much as the Japanese), and have more births to teenagers (seven times more than the Swedes) which is a danger to young girls and babies.
But....the Nordic people live much healthier lives than Americans. They walk, ski, run, bike, swim and they don't dig their graves with a knife and fork.
They don't have large polluted congested areas and there is a big difference when it comes to climat.
Scandinavia is not hot and humid and is spared diseases which thrive in tropical and subtropical areas.
Not even fleas survive winters in Scandinavia
Pogo above, pointed out that the socialized medicine on the Reservations sure has not resulted in very good health.
Berit, what Who's number? It was Forbes report, not Who's.
ReplyDeleteIf you're going to be "factoring in" other variables then you need to do the same for NA reservation poor health which is greatly contributed to by the fact that their whole world was taken away from them as a people by Europeans and when that happens the spirit of the people is shattered and with the spirit the body weakens as well.
Really Stepehn, if that is true then the Jewish people should be laying prostrate on the ground, body and spirit broken.
ReplyDeleteStephen,
ReplyDeleteBehind The Numbers:
"To determine our list of the healthiest places to live in the world, Forbes.com looked at the latest available health and environmental statistics for every nation, from sources such as the World Health Organization, the World Bank and the UN."
http://www.forbes.com/2008/04/07/health-world-countries-forbeslife-cx_avd_0408health.html
Do you complety ignore all the differences between U.S. and Scandinavia that I listed above?
Stephen: "...their whole world was taken away from them as a people by Europeans and when that happens the spirit of the people is shattered and with the spirit the body weakens as well."
ReplyDeleteSorry Stephen but that excuse does not fly. Not only does it defy reason as 7:15 AM points out with the Jews but virtually every other modern society has emerged from conquered populations. You have inferred that socialist medical care is the cause of Nordic health levels and choose to ignore facts proving otherwise.
As Berit points out Forbes got their "data" from a bank and WHO/UN who have an anti US political agenda. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon connect the dots.
It's time they stopped living in the past, Stephen, sitting around nursing old wounds serves no one.
ReplyDeleteReservations are the worst idea ever conceived. We are all people with diverse backgrounds, historical cultures, and many who came to this Country survived horrific oppression, often religious.
Anyone who doesn't recognize the incredible gift of our Founding Fathers' clear headed prescription for a successful free society dooms us to failure.
It is only because we are so successful that people are able to sit around picking at hangnails and old grievances. ONly because food is readily available that they are able to forget where the food comes from.
You were free to choose the counter culture lifestyle, Stephen, and society set up a safety net to take care of you.
In this new world order you are so anxious to usher in, you may not be given that choice, but be ordered to work in the fields, with no free choice and free expression. You don't have to look far to see this system at work, never forget what it means. And don't wish it on me. I don't choose Socialism/Dictatorship.
Rose, you choose dictatorship of the almighty dollar. I don't. If you have no shame for your forefather's genocidal deeds, I do. And I am to do what I can to even up the disadvantages of the indigenous peoples who were victims of our European savagery which you are still willing to continue, e.g. your support for U.S. wars against indigenous populations in Iraq, Afghanistan, and of course, Israel.
ReplyDeleteAs for Jewish economic recovery from their disasters it surely helped that they controlled millions and millions of dollars in the more prosperous societies they became the money managers for. Look to see the difference in Indian health now in the coming generations where casino tribes are catching to white economic standards. Having access to lot's of money does cushion culture shock which is why Jews prosper on regardless of their religiously conditioned inability as an religious ethnic group to integrate successfully with Gentiles.
Anyone who doesn't recognize the incredible gift of our Founding Fathers' clear headed prescription for a successful free society dooms us to failure.
ReplyDeleteClear headed prescription? The constitution was purposefully written vaguely so that it would pass the Convention. It also didn't address the elephant in the room at the time, slavery, which led to a war which almost destroyed the country and killed 600,000+ soldiers.
ONly because food is readily available that they are able to forget where the food comes from.
If you take a look at the world's communist and socialist countries, they have come out of a history of far greater history of war, famine and hardship. The U.K. had the blitzkrieg. WWI and II were fought in their backyards.
So, I would posit that our insulation and success has done the opposite of what you say. We're a cutthroat capitalist society because nobody really UNDERSTANDS what it means to rely on your neighbor, community and country as they do, over there.
You were free to choose the counter culture lifestyle, Stephen, and society set up a safety net to take care of you.
Well, you sure are patronizing. "You chose to be a liberal commie, and you lucked out!" Well, didn't you luck out Rose when your father set up a trust fund for you to live off of for the rest of your life? Off of interest earned by hourly workers who may not receive benefits? Off the backs of the working poor?
In this new world order you are so anxious to usher in, you may not be given that choice, but be ordered to work in the fields, with no free choice and free expression. You don't have to look far to see this system at work, never forget what it means.
So, where in these countries with socialized medicine are people forced to work in the fields? We have people working in our fields today who are denied basic medical coverage. Are you aware of this?
Do you know where YOUR food comes from?
How far back do you want to go, Stephen?perhaps we should all be in angst over the first tribe of cavemen who overcame another tribe. It's gone on throughout history all over the world.
ReplyDeleteOr, we could stop, put the past aside and recognize that we are all part of one tribe now - the HUMAN tribe, with all our amazing unique characteristics, beliefs.
What happened in the past is no excuse. Get over it.
And, just fyi, my ancestors had nothing to do with what happened here.
If you're of European descent which you are, Rose, of course your ancestors had something to do with the genocide of indigenous peoples to create America.
ReplyDeleteAs for your claim to being part of the Human tribe, it's pure b.s. because you don't act like you give a rat's ass for those Humans, the millions of them, that are victims of our particular "tribe". Proof of identification with humanity is not based on verbal expression but on deeds done to help those members of the global family who are in desperate need who, not surprisely, are usually the victims of our "Tribe"s violent aggression to protect our "Tribe"s capitalists access to foreign markets and of course the oil needed to run capitalist economies.
Part of being human, Stephen, and being part of the tribe, is to contribute to the tribe's well being by making sure that you are not a drain on the tribe's resources. (And lest we get off on a tangent, I am using 'tribe' to refer to humankind, communities, not in the Indian sense)
ReplyDeleteEither you hunt, and bring in food, or you build shelter, or cook the food.
On occasion, when a hunter is injured by a saber tooth tiger, the tribe agrees, collectively to support him until he recovers. He can sit on his ass, I suppose, or he can do other things, tan hides, make shoes, arrowheads, or weapons for the hunt.
At no point in a tribe that must work for subsistence, is there any room for one who is unable to take care of themselves. Tribes knew this, and often left the weak by the side of the trail, and they accepted their fate. Sad. Tragic, and our society evolved to make sure that did not have to happen. Then, the gift society gave willingly began to be taken for granted, claimed as a right. It isn't.
You do not have the right to the fruits of another man's labor. That gift may be given freely, but not forced. Nor should it be abused.
This vast paroxysm by the entitlement class - claiming as rights the fruits of other men's work will fail, as it has always failed.
This idea that because some men have money and you don't that that is injustice is wrongheaded.
It simply is. That dynamic is also a constant in human history, and will always be, no matter what measures are undertaken to pretend otherwise.
Think back to your commune days - if someone moved in who would not help with the garden, the cooking, the building, the cleaning, how long were they welcome? And what good were they? Those communes were tribes, and well-meaning as they were, as cool an idea as they were, they failed at trying to rewrite the code that has been developed over centuries of human interaction.
And, btw - our current National Tribe - they help people all over the world. Not just in times of disaster. We are and remain the greatest thing this planet has ever seen. I don't have alot of hope at teh moment though, since the entitlement class seems intent on using their newfound power to destroy it. As they do, however, kill the host - those horrid capitalists and achievers - they will also kill off their gravy train.
Wow you are one twisted bitch.
ReplyDelete3:51 PM, Wow! That is some hard hitting and compelling rhetoric.
ReplyDeleteHow about: "I disagree and this is why"?
Rose's logic: "It simply is."
ReplyDeleteIt simply is the right of rich and powerful to exploit the poor and weak. It's the way it is. It's "natural". Except it isn't, Rose, not when you study anthropology and see that human communities for most of humanities existence on earth have been cooperators and not competitors within the same group. Enter the market economy and competition for wealth which can be traced back to Romans and probably much further back than that. Romans gave us the first agri-businesses and the first theatre of gore sports exploitation besides butchering thousands of Palestinian Jews like Jesus.
Rose, you need to get out in the world and see how other people besides Americans live and conduct their lives because you've got some pretty weird ideas about other societies and how they take care of each other. Competition for survival should not be part of civilized life but here we are in the 21st century with more wealth and ability to feed and house people than at any time in history but what do we do? We allow competitors to rule our society and structure it according to their money games--not according to society's needs.
I know I can't wake you up at this stage of your community awareness but you know me, you know I don't lie and cheat and steal and I have a very strong work ethic, put in many years of over 40 hours per week work which is why I'm still working everyday as an activist at age 65. There are literally millions of good people who you don't recognize as such because they have been beaten down by our economic system that favors the rich and powerful over the poor. You want the poor to shut up and go away but until our social system changes radically to equalize wealth and power in our society for all, including those currently excluded or unable to financially contribute, we will have nothing but further social warfare, the co-partner of competition by the few for control and exploitation of the many. I am a follower of Jesus and therefore I follow the Father of the Socialist Ethic.
Somehow, Stephen, you seem to have glossed over man's inhumanity to man, which transcends culture.
ReplyDeleteYour Utopian ideal cannot be achieved - even today, man's inhumanity seeks to find its way out. It has nothing to do with rich or poor, corporations or borders, which is just the thin veneer of civilization at its breaking point.
Please, Rose, I do not share your pessimism of the human race. I am Christian and see a positive future for humanity. Your gloom and doom underlying philosophy is what makes you a Republican instead of the Democrat you would be if you believed in your fellow man and woman.
ReplyDeleteAu contraire. Stephen. It is GOVERNMENT that you are putting faith in. I do not. I choose to put my faith in people.
ReplyDeleteThen you'd be a democrat, Rose. "Democracy"= government of the people, by the people, for the people. Sound familiar? I'm doing what I can to insure that all the people are served by our government, not just those who have fought their way to the top by whatever means necessary and think everyone else should be aggressive entrepreneurs just like them or get lost.
ReplyDeleteStephen for God's sake, just because the Party is named the "Democratic party" does not mean a damn thing. In fact, in case you weren't aware, the Republicans are also part of our Democracy.
ReplyDeleteBut if you want to differentiate, the "Democratic" party is about taking money from those who work, and the Republican party is about letting people keep more of what they earn, and about people being more responsible for themselves.
How much do you want, Stephen? 80% of what someone makes? To give it to whom? 100%? How long do you think people are going to work under that system?
And, btw - just for the record - I'm using the collective "you" when I am beating up on you here, not necessarily referring to 'you" personally - it's the mindset I am talking about. Trying to get you to think about the reality.
If you want to take 60%, 80% of what someone makes, just make it even and fair - everyone pays the same percentage, minimum wage or millionaire, all treated equally.
Your trust fund is only taxed at 15% Rose. The workers who provide you quarterly dividends are taxed at a considerably higher rate for there hourly labor. I agree, lets tax you more, and the workers less.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, as President of the United Nations of America I would immediately have a bill drafted to tax everyone who makes more than a million dollars a year at 100%. No one needs to make more than a million dollars a year and the billionaires we do have, especially the very richest ones like Rupert Murdoch, owner Fox affiliates and multi-newspapers, radio stations, pose a threat to the nation's free and uncensored access to information as well a threat to our economic stability.
ReplyDeleteNext, I would nationalize all banks and all primary resources on lands that must belong to the people as a whole. No individuals or private corporations should control our energy or basic community necessities, like communications, transportation vehicles, basic medical costs, basic education from kindergarten to university, basic housing, i.e. everything that is basically needed to keep a community healthy, safe, and economically viable.
I favor a two-tier economy where the 1st tier of all basic necessities for individual health and well-being is completely socialized, i.e., economically democratized so that everyone has an equal say in the primary needs of any community. Let free-market capitalism reign in the 2nd tier of non-essentials, there's plenty of room for economic over-achievers to make their million dollars if they want to. This way becoming a "Millionaire" will mean something again while infusing the whole broadened out middleclass with loads of capital for private enterprise start-ups in the 2nd tier economy.
Rose, you'll never be able to convince me of your economic "reality" because where is it? Just what is reality when you've got an over-priced yet sub-standard array of mfg'd goods and services provided by the present corporate capitalist system that is vulnerable at any time to market pressures from the Third World countries which according to capitalist logic must and already have captured the mfg' market. In other words, our present capitalist system is in dire threat of running out of steam because American workers cannot be paid the low salaries of less developed nations. Are you really facing this reality, Rose?
In short, our present capitalist system cannot compete anymore on the open world market. China and India will rise to the top and where will the American worker be when he has no jobs because his corporation outsources practically everything?
This is why I have been promoting communitarian capitalist alternative industry that focuses on community self-sufficiency because that is where our future prosperity lies. Our visionaries are still ahead of all nations in the conception and design of energy-efficient cooperative living model communities and while it lasts we can still compete with other nations in establishing self-sufficient community systems. But gone are the days when the free market allows Americans to continue building up American manufacturing. Economic "reality" shows we can't compete unless we create a new economic niche which is communitarian capitalist manufacturing and distribution of community self-sufficiency systems that we ourselves are the first to use to become free of the almighty dollar's stranglehold on our personal lives.
Oh. Like Rupert Murdoch.
ReplyDeleteHow about John Kerry? John 'baby daddy' Edwards? How 'bout Al Gore? Barbara Streisand?
Oh, not people like THEM, they're DEMOCRATS after all.
And none of them a billionaire like Murdoch with his greedy paws on your major news and information system. For instance, as a anti-Zionist I am not allowed to post comments on the world's largest internet religious discussion forum, Beliefnet.com, because it is owned by Rupert and Zionists rule Bnet's membership and posting policies (as well as Bnet advertising). I don't watch TV but I do know Fox News is not exactly your most neutral of news broadcasting companies so here again we have Rupert managing what news and information Americans receive. I guess this control of one man over the vital communications links of Americans doesn't bother you because he's a Republican? I me, this is such a huge slap in the face of honest information sharing that I protest the sick system that produces these rich jerks.
ReplyDeleteRose, read my latest blog entry from Mazim Quimseyeh and learn some more about the people we've helped create, the millions of Palestinian refugees who cannot return to their own homeland while Jewish immigrants from any place in the world are allowed to replace the ousted native population.
Here's Rupert Murdoch trying to influence British elections. This is why we need to Tax the Super Rich out of existence. Their wealth and power poses a threat to national security and economic stability.
ReplyDelete"Tories deny 'deal' with Murdoch
Rupert Murdoch
Mr Murdoch's Sun newspaper was accused of "crude politicking"
The Conservatives have dismissed claims of a pact with media mogul Rupert Murdoch as "absolute nonsense".
Shadow culture secretary Jeremy Hunt told Sky News this was a "completely wrong and totally improper" allegation.
Last week, Business Secretary Lord Mandelson said Mr Murdoch's News International and the Tories had "effectively formed a contract".
This followed critical reporting in the Sun newspaper of Gordon Brown's letter to the mother of a dead soldier.
The prime minister was accused of misspelling the surname of Jacqui Janes in his handwritten note.
It was also reported that he had overwritten a misspelt mention of Guardsman Jamie Janes, rather than restarting the note.
'Very consistent'
Mr Brown, who has poor eyesight, apologised for "any unintended mistake".
But Lord Mandelson accused the Sun of "crude politicking" ahead of the next general election.
The newspaper, owned by News International, switched allegiance to the Conservatives in September after 12 years of backing Labour.
He added: "What the Sun can do for the Conservatives during the election is one part of the contract and, presumably, what the Conservatives can do for News International if they are elected is the other side of the bargain."
Mr Hunt told Sky News: "It's absolute nonsense. And if you look at what we've been saying on media policy, it's been very, very consistent for the last two years."
He added: "There are no deals. I think what Peter Mandelson said was extraordinary.
"If there was some deal between the Conservatives and News Corp [News International's parent company], then what about Labour's deal in 1997, 2001, 2005 [general election years]? It's absolute nonsense."
Mr Brown recently said he had "the most enormous personal regard" for Mr Murdoch and spoke to him regularly.
Asked whether he did the same, Mr Hunt said: "I don't ring up Rupert Murdoch and have a chat about the way things are going at all...
"I'm sure they [Mr Murdoch and Conservative leader David Cameron] have met and why shouldn't they?
"But the idea of any kind of deal would be completely wrong and totally improper."